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I know it would take more than just those 2 but I would hope we could include them. I don’t anticipate that we would only get Kirilloff.
I am looking to relieve a little payroll while trying to build a good team. I am willing to give up quality in an area of excess (pitching) to shore up an area of need.
Throw in another player and try and get Rosario also. Not a great player, but pretty good both offensively and defensively..
In approximately 5 years worth of games:Runs 400
Hits 738
Doubles 134
Triples 22 (Admittedly 15 came in first season)
Home runs 119
RBIS 388
SB 39
Caught 20
BB 133
K’s 539
BA .277
OB% .310
SLG .478
OPS .788
OPS+ 109Like I said, not great but good. Left handed hitter. Rasario, Carlson, Kiriloff = revamped outfield for 21. If Rosario leaves after 2021, you are cutting another $10 million or so.
I would prefer to hang on to O’Neill for another year and give him more opportunities. He seems like someone who could follow in the footsteps of Ozuna, Voit, Arozarena, etc, where he goes somewhere else and turns into a 40 homer, 150 OPS+ guy, with a dozen or more SBs to boot.
BikeMike,
I’d have to disagree on O’Neill. He’s had over 400 big league atbats and he’s struck out almost 40% of the time. I’d say its time to cut bait with him.And 2021 will determine whether its time to cut bait with both Carlos Martinez and Anthony Reyes.
In my mind 2021 is going to be a very telling season for the Cardinal organization.
r/Esteemed Rat
I’m not ready to give up on O’Neill. He’s still developing, still trying to find himself, IMO. He changed a lot from 2019 to 2020. I think there’s a good chance that he will break out of whatever is still holding him back. Wait at least one more year.
With Reyes’ injury history he probably doesn’t have much value. OTOH, if he can stay healthy, he becomes ‘untouchable’ to use the word, I think, Whitey initially came up with.
We should trade CMart in a package for an outfielder. Send DeJong to Cleveland in a package for Lindor. Then, reach an agreement with Colorado that brings Arenado to
‘da Lou. We have the prospects. Now all it takes is money, lots and lots of money.
🤠If you keep O’Neill and give him another chance to start next season – and you add another outfielder, too, how are the four of them going to play? I don’t see any realistic scenarios that don’t include Fowler and Carlson playing every day. (This also assumes Bader becomes a reserve.)
I don’t see any realistic scenarios that don’t include Fowler and Carlson playing every day.
Has Fowler ever made it through a season without a DL stint? I ask because it feels like he’s very fragile and misses time at some point every year. There are around 2200 plate appearances every year for outfielders, give or take. It would take some creativity but there’s room for people to play. Not saying it will happen because we know Shildt really defers to his veterans but it’s not impossible.
Sure, that is why you have backups, for when injuries occur. For the record, Fowler played in 150 games plus playoffs in 2019.
2021 is Fowler’s walk year. I expect him to have a good year. I dont expect that to mean he will be in a Redbird uniform in 2022, however.
r/Esteemed Rat
Rat…….if Fowler whacks 65 dingers, coupled with 170 rbi in 2021, we still better not see him donning Cardinal red in 2022.
I see a lot of you mentioning getting rid of Wong and putting Edman at 2B. I thought the idea was to improve the team. No comparison fielding wise. And Wong arguably had a better year at the plate. Money shouldn’t be an issue. Focus needs to be the OF/3B. Don’t mess with the rest.
I think you don’t make any big moves until some of the money comes off books post 2021. Hate to say it but might be best option
kscardfan, the only reason I would “get rid” of Wong is to free up money to upgrade either 3B or the OF. Edman and Sosa could man 2B and the team would not see much of difference when all facets are considered. Obviously, I don’t see either of them being as good, defensively, as Wong.
I would really like the Cardinals to make a run at Justin Turner for a 2-3 year contract. That would provide that MOTO bat.
We have talked about who we would trade and who we would acquire. However, I was not sure that anyone had looked at how much money the club will have to spend for 2021 payroll. So, I tried to figure out the Cardinals committed money and how much would be available for 2021 (assuming payroll stays flat year-over-year – big assumption). I came up with the following analysis:
2020 Payroll (Unadjusted from Cots) $ 168.9 M
Less: Contracts coming of the books $( 40.6)M A
Add: Increases for Contract Options $ 3.0 M B
Add: Increases for Arbitration $ 15.0 M C
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Revised Baseline Payroll $ 146.3 MMoney Available for Trades or FA $ 22.6 M D
A = the following contracts or commitments come off the books in 2021: Moina $20M, Cecil $7.625Mm Wainright $5M. Leake $4M, Miller $2M and Wieters $2M.
B = Andrew Miller’s option vested ($.5M increase over 2020) and Wong’s option will be picked up ($2.5M increase over 2020).
C = I am estimating the arbitration bill be $15M for six players – Gant (A2), Flaherty (A1), Bader (A1), Brebbia (A1), Hicks (A1) and Reyes (A1).
D = Assuming payroll stays flat (that is a big assumption) that leaves $22.6M to cover salaries of Free Agents and net increase in payroll due to players acquired.That is not a whole lot of money if you think about it. You would have to pay Wainright ($5M plus incentives) and Yadi ($10M plus incentives?) from these funds. If my estimates for this contract were to be correct the team would have $7.6M to cover any free agent contracts or increases due to contracts acquired in a trade.
Always enjoy these exercises. I fully expect the Cards to make small upgrades around the margin and maybe even cost cutting trades if they can make them work. However, I like the idea of a short term upgrade a 3B. Seems like the easiest way to upgrade the offense with the most options. You’re really looking for a 2 year solution there. The FO seems to want to play what they have in the OF for 2021 and that’s probably better than running Carpenter out to 3B 3/4 of the time. So my four ideas for an “upgrade” at 3B.
1. Matt Chapman – a pipe dream, but if you wanted to swing big, this is who I go after instead of Arenado. The A’s have no reason to trade him and you’d have to trade the farm to get him, but man, that would be a great way to upgrade!
2. Jose Ramierez – a little more reasonable. 27 yrs old, but starts getting expensive after 2021 (12/14M so essentially Wong’s contract), though they are club options so a good contract for them. Doesn’t say anything about referring to player option with trade (like the next guy). The Indians have some top prospect SS/3B in AAA ready for some playing time and could use an upgrade at 2B and have a hole in the rotation to fill (currently all righties) Since they’ve had some ability to orchestrate win/win trades with the Indians in the past maybe you can make this work for Kolton Wong and somebody like Austin Gomber. Not knowing how teams value talent, I still think that’s WAYYYY light on a value trade scale so you probably have to throw in a pretty good pitching prospect too. I’d say it’s unlikely.
3. Kyle Seager – He’s been better than average the last two years and even with some regression added in he would be an upgrade at 3B (though not a true middle of the order masher). He has been an above average hitter with good power over the last 2 years after a pretty miserable 2018. Given the transition to the NL and a slightly better hitters park (SAFECO is very pitcher friendly) you could hope for 25-30 HR and OPS+ around 120 for a year or two with good not great defense. Again a pretty good track record trading with Seattle. He’s pretty expensive, but not cost prohibitive at 18M for 2021 and 15M (converts to player option with trade) for 2022. There is some serious regression risk with him, but likely a more affordable option. To me Seattle looks like they could use an upgrade at C and another piece to the rotation, preferably a RHP. So maybe Andrew Knizner and Daniel PonceDeLeon can get this done. If you’re looking at Trade Values, Seattle would probably need to kick in a prospect like a Brandon Williamson (LHP) though to my untrained eye that seems like a lot. Seattle has Ty Fletcher who could take over 3B and gets good value, but this feels like it’s biased a bit towards the Cardinals.
4. Justin Turner – At 36 if you can get him on a 2 year deal with a club/player option for the 3rd year. Probably not a bad option, especially if FA salaries are artificially suppressed by COVID uncertainty this offseason.Overall There is something to say for all of these. Justin Turner probably adds the most payroll, but you don’t lose anything. Kyle Seager adds a lot of payroll too, but is a solid up grade. Jose Ramirez is the best “realistic” option, but they’d have to give up a lot to get him I believe. Overall, I think the Cardinals chose option E. None of the above
1964,
If you look on earlier pages of this thread you will find a detailed salary profile of each player and the team as a whole. It has definitely been discussed.
The bottom line is the Cardinals don’t have much payroll space unless they can find a way to offload a couple of players.
Lots of people want Lindor, but I don’t see the Cards ponying up the long term $$$ for him. How about another Cleveland player who has 2 years of control, Jose Rameriez. Third base, switch-hitter with pop and good defensively. Contract is cheap for next 3 years, (9, 11 & 13 but can opt out after 22 and that is the key, as Indians probably won’t be able to keep him.) Indians will probably want quite a lot. Trade either Montero plus a young pitcher not named Lieratore and a lottery pick type 3rd player. Or Gorman and a young pitcher.
6 years
496 runs
840 hits
213 doubles
23 triples
127 home runs
437 RBI’s
281 BA
354 OBP
494 SLG
848 OPS
123 OPS+Losing Waino would be a big loss for next year. I’d imagine we might need to sign a starter for insurance. Would someone like Kluber be gettable for a Waino-like $5M+ incentives?
Not to mention, no fans for Waino’s last start would stink.
Without Waino and Hudson, these are presumed starters for 2021:
Flaherty
Kim
Mikolas
Martinez
Gomber
Ponce
Reyes?Woodford
OviedoIf it was my team, I would not go after a free agent starter and instead would redirect the money to get a left fielder. I see enough pitching depth.
Excluding the nine above, here is the nine-man pen (and this assumes 28-man rosters continue):
Hicks
Brebbia
Gant
A Miller
Gallegos
Helsley
Cabrera
Webb
WhitleyFernandez
Elledge
Crismatt
SanchezThe total is 22 pitchers with MLB experience already on the roster. I am pretty sure they can come up with a very good 13 or 14 from this group.
The 2021 Cardinals need to score more runs…
If it was my team, I would not go after a free agent starter and instead would redirect the money to get a left fielder. I see enough pitching depth.
Excluding the nine above, here is the nine-man pen (and this assumes 28-man rosters continue):
I would agree with that unless we have to trade more pitching to get the bat we need.
I have been wandering about the roster sizes for next year. I hope they stay at 28 but would the owners really agree to that? That seems like a bargaining chip they would save for the CBA negotiations.
Brian, why would you assume the continuation of 28 man rosters but dont assume the continuation of the NL DH?
Owners will want to save money, so they will want to return to 26 if there are no immediate COVID concerns, is my guess. They could always expand in-season as they did in 2020, if necessary.
The owners also want expanded playoffs to continue, so this could be an area to bargain. (The DH could be another.)
Sources: the qualifying offer for MLB players in 2020 is $18.9 million. Last year’s was $17.8.
— Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) October 8, 2020
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