October 3, 2020 at 3:31 pm #143666
As a side note, the Padres had about the same payroll as the Cards this season, and had Tatis, Machado, Myers, and Hosmer in the lineup.
In all fairness 2 of those contracts were considered sunk costs before the season. They got their money worth for sure out of not only those 4 but several others and traded to make a long postseason run once they figured out they could compete with LAD.October 3, 2020 at 3:35 pm #143667
One thing the Cardinals have to find out is why DeJong’s production keeps falling of the cliff as the year goes on. If it’s totally due to how much he plays, they better get his backup planned out this off season. That may be an internal option or an external option. It may even be a replacement.
The league makes adjustments. He has to make adjustments on his own. It appears he’s unwilling or unable to do so. I’ve brought this up many times but he may not be as good as some people thought he could be at the plate. Trying to hit 30 homers might be his main issue.October 3, 2020 at 4:19 pm #143670
I fully expect most teams to announce reduced payrolls for 2021. The big boys and main contenders aside. I think the Cardinals will use this as an excuse to part ways with Waino or Yadi or even both if they want to get froggy. Martinez and Wong I’m on the fence on both. With questions surrounding the Rotation and Bullpen headed into 2021 I think it would be wise to keep Martinez and if he doesn’t work out as a starter then establish some value in the pen and deal him at the deadline. Wong you could just turn 2nd over to Edman but you want that good defense wong brings for the pitching and with Carpenter’s sub par last 2 seasons you need a back up plan albeit a softer one than I’d like in Edman.
As far as Carpenter and Fowler forget getting rid of either for now. Fowler maybe if he produces a bit in 2021 maybe he can be dealt at the deadline but for now we’re stuck with him and Carpenter.
Far as any FA additions. Low hanging fruit is possible for the OF but with so much of it being on the roster with guys like Ravelo, O’Niell and Thomas in AAA hanging around and with excuse of COVID season I think this gives the ownership a perfect reason to trot out basically the same offense for 2021. It could get slighty better or it could be more of the same trash. If it’s more of this seasons offense be prepared for this to be the worst team we’ve put on the field since 2007. Oh and then the CBA needs to get renegotiated. Joy division!October 3, 2020 at 4:20 pm #143671RatsbuddyParticipantFree
I agree they need another big bat in the middle of the lineup. Carlson will NOT be that big bat. I am afraid people are going to expect too much from him.
How they can obtain that big bat is the question mark. Dealing some of their young pitchers is one possibility. As far as I am concerned Jack Fletcher is the only one thats untouchable.
Its Fowler’s walk year so I expect him to do well next year. And I cant see Carpenter doing much in 2021.
r/Esteemed RatOctober 3, 2020 at 4:20 pm #143672mudvilleParticipantPaid - Annual
Nice analysis on the 2022 payroll picture.
I can’t imagine them letting Molina walk.
We’ll see about Waino. But I have a feeling he might give it up during this offseason. The Padres figured him out by the 4th inning of game 2, and he couldn’t do anything about it. Then again, after he rests for awhile and starts feeling better, and if Molina comes back, he might give it another try. If he comes back one more year when he really shouldn’t, it could get ugly. I hope he makes his decision sooner rather than later.
I’m not sure why they brought Wieters back last year. Did they think that Knizner wasn’t quite ready yet? Or could they have been anticipating that Knizner was going to be traded? Knizner could be traded, especially if Yadi comes back for two years.
The needs are what forsch31 said at the beginning of this thread, third base and the outfield. Everybody knows the fix for those needs. But can Mo make it happen?
I’d like to see Carpenter be let go. In a perfect world, he gives the rest of his contract back. He is entitled to it, but he has no way of earning it and he doesn’t deserve the money. Salsa….
Somebody needs to figure out if the poor defense is related to Jeff Albert’s coaching method. The Cardinals brought him on board because they thought he was responsible for the Astros’ being such good hitters. Apparently, cheating was responsible for the Astros being such good hitters.
The Padres lineup is awesome. They have young players with star power. Yadi is not young but, IMO, he still has star power. Goldschmidt has star power. Waino is borderline. Flaherty and Carlson look promising and could be stars soon. But that’s it. The Cardinals need to add a star to their lineup.October 3, 2020 at 4:29 pm #143673
858, are you saying that he makes adjustments every off-season but then doesn’t adjust during the season?
DeJong was hitting .304/.387/.441/.828 after 30 games played this year. The Cardinals had played 42 games. From that point on, he hit .140/.182/.160/.342 with only 1 day off and struck out almost 35% of his PAs. He had played in both games of 4 double headers and 25 games in 23 days from his return from COVID through that 42nd game. That sounds like a very heavy workload. I would guess fatigue had more to do with the poor results in the final 16 games.
In 2019, DeJong hit .305/.399/.535/.934 while starting in 49 of the first 50 games. He also came in to play in the only game he did not start. After that point, he hit .199/.278/.402/.680 while starting all but 4 of the remaining games.October 3, 2020 at 5:02 pm #143674
As a side note, the Padres had about the same payroll as the Cards this season, and had Tatis, Machado, Myers, and Hosmer in the lineup.
According to Cots, the Padres’ payroll is about 30 million less than the Cardinals’. However, I have not double checked those figures.
As far as having Machado, Myers, Hosmer and Tatis in the lineup, the Padres had a payroll that was over $80 million less than the Cardinals in 2027. They had the room to sign free agents (Machado and Hosmer) and re-sign their own players (Myers) to extensions. The Cardinals missed out on Tatis, who will not cost very much for a few more years, when he signed with San Diego as a international free agent.October 3, 2020 at 5:10 pm #143675
Why didn’t the Cards sign Tatis, with the family tradition?October 3, 2020 at 5:25 pm #143676
You would have to ask Mo/Girsch.October 3, 2020 at 5:46 pm #143677
Too much risk putting trust in O’Neill, Bader, Carlson, Thomas, and Williams to round out your outfield (with Fowler in RF). Especially with the year Carp had in 2019. Has this been said?October 3, 2020 at 6:16 pm #143678Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
FWIW, Tatis first signed with the White Sox, which traded him to the Padres as a minor leaguer as part of a deal for James Shields. I suspect ChiSox fans are having greater remorse than Cardinals fans. At least they should…
P.S. JMO, but it seems to me that turning another thread into second-guessing about the past seems out of place with the forward-looking focus of this thread.October 3, 2020 at 7:31 pm #143679
Not out of place for at all, Brian. It makes a lot of fans wonder if Mo is going with the same cast in 2021 because of budget restraints. Take the same risk again. Or if he’s going to get creative with some trades. Some of which may include several of these young guys he took a risk with. Very pertinent for an off season discussion.October 3, 2020 at 8:14 pm #143680
IMO, trying to re-hash the same argument about the 2020 OF is NOT the focus of this thread. I hope that none of the other posters will follow down your road with the question you asked. I don’t see where your reply #143677 says anything about what the Cardinals need to do this off-season. I, personally, read that post as you are trying to lay blame on the past.
I started this thread to get productive ideas on things the Cardinals can do moving forward this winter. I will not reply again to trying to shift this focus to the 2020 OF. If you feel we need to make a trade or cut someone, please state what you think the Cardinals need to do this winter and make a reasonable argument as to why you think that way.October 3, 2020 at 8:16 pm #143681bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
Too much risk putting trust in O’Neill, Bader, Carlson, Thomas, and Williams to round out your outfield (with Fowler in RF). Especially with the year Carp had in 2019. Has this been said?
I think you just did. 🙂October 3, 2020 at 8:23 pm #143682
Brian, I forgot that Tatis had originally signed with the White Sox. I knew it but just had one of those moments.
Considering the Padres have only 6 players with a 2021 contract and only 3 free agents (Richards, Yates and Profar), their situation is totally different from the Cardinals. They have 9 players in varying years of arbitration. The rest of the team is under control for at least 3 more years.October 3, 2020 at 8:36 pm #143683
Okay, I think the fact that all but Carlson and Bader not playing much in the playoffs says a bunch. That means the 2021 starting outfield next season could very well be Fowler, Carlson, and Edman. They may hold onto Bader as a late inning defensive replacement. That puts O’Neill, Thomas, and Williams in limbo and possibly on the trade block. There’s also the possibility, though, that Wong and Martinez could be moved, which moves Edman to 2B.
But my gut feeling is that they’re going to try to make a trade for a big bat.
Like they have tried to do with Heyward, Ozuna, and Goldy.October 3, 2020 at 8:42 pm #143684kscardfanParticipantFree
Same problem as last year. Is a no brainer. Need to replace Carp. His time has come and gone. Bader and O’Neill don’t work out. They had their chance. Enough has been seen. Go get one elite at either third or in the OF. Pay the money. Then fill the other two places with above average players. Not Bader and O’Neill. Ozuna could have been had at a decent price. Gonna be too much now. I’m still hung up on Arenado. His defense and bat fit this lineup so well.October 3, 2020 at 8:43 pm #143685
Oh, and Forsch, sometimes you need to look at the mistakes a team has made in order to have a discussion on whether they learned from those mistakes. And take corrective action. Agree?October 3, 2020 at 8:47 pm #143686
That’s not what I want to talk about on this thread. I would rather discuss going forward. You have stated your point of view on several threads. I prefer to leave that discussion there.October 3, 2020 at 8:54 pm #143687
Okay, Forsch. We need a good bat at 3B and a good bat in LF. The bat in LF could be long term. The bat at 3B a shorter term fill in until Gorman is ready. Just my opinion.October 3, 2020 at 9:00 pm #143688Houstonlarry24ParticipantFree
After reading all the suggestions get ready for more of the same. How depressing.October 3, 2020 at 9:13 pm #143689
I agree that we need better hitting from our 3B and LF positions. I am still trying to come up with an idea as to how to address that need. I hope that Carlson will address 1 OF position but I don’t want to fully rely on him being able to hit enough to make a big difference.
We have Wainwright, Molina, Wieters and Brad Miller as free agents this winter. Wong has an option for 2021. Andrew Miller’s option vested so he is under contract for 2021 and then his contract is over. Fowler’s contract expires after 2021 so we only have to put up with his situation for 1 more year. CMart has an option for 2022 and 2023. Carpenter’s contract could be over after 2021. I really hope he does not get 550 PAs for 2021. I think the Cardinals need to refuse his option for 2022 and walk away after 2021….unless they could come up with a miracle and trade him (or cut him).
With all this happening, the Cardinals will be able to do some things in the next couple of years but they need to stop with the stupid contracts. I hope to put some more concrete ideas down in the next few days or weeks.October 3, 2020 at 9:22 pm #143690stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
The team has some strengths: defense and the pitching staff. The offense is mediocre. I guess the front office will have to decide whether they will accept another 85-88 win team next year knowing that the expanded playoffs will probably still be in play, or whether they want to do a one year teardown. Either way, the 2022 and beyond payroll situation looks good. There are a few guys to make decisions on:
Cmart-Is he toast, or can he be a valuable member of the rotation? People are way down on him and a trade would be accepting nothing in return, and probably having to pay some team to take him. The risk is watching him pitch to his typical good results with another team while our rotation struggles.
Yadi-Would they really let the legend walk? Based on their usage of Knizner this year, it seems he’s not trustworthy in their eyes, so they would need some sort of free agent to catch some innings. I just don’t see him not back in St Louis.
Waino-Unless he retires, how do you not resign him? He steadied the Cards’ rotation multiple times this year when they needed it most, and the rotation is a lot of question marks after Flaherty next year.
Bader-Do you just hate how he wiggles and moves around and doesn’t hit well? Then I suppose you just want to be rid of him. Otherwise, could you upgrade the team by including him in a trade?
O’Neill-The Cards and their fans both seem to be down on him. This one has the biggest upside to bite the team big-time if they traded him away. Put him in the Astros or Yankees or Twins lineup and I bet he hits .270 with 30+ HRs. He also led left fielders in every defensive metric that I’ve seen (DRS, UZR, Outs above average).
Wong-If they decline the option we can forget about every other upgrade cause it won’t be happening if they can’t afford this. He’ll be back.October 3, 2020 at 9:26 pm #143691
How about signing Justin Turner to a 2 year contract? We could trade Wong or let him walk and use Edman and Sosa at 2B.
Another idea is signing Andrelton Simmons? Once again, trade Wong or let him walk. Use DeJong, Sosa and Edman to fill 2B and 3B.
Just trying to spitball. Thoughts?October 3, 2020 at 9:27 pm #143692stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
I really hope he does not get 550 PAs for 2021
Remember that Carp has to have 550 PA next year plus 1110 cumulatively in 2020 and 2021. He had 169 PAs in 58 games this year for a 470 PA pace. This means he needs 630 PA next year. There’s no way he gets there unless he is classic Carp. I would expect no more PT than this year for him unless there are major injuries.
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