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Forsch, last year Dejong was first in the defensive component of WAR that Fangraphs uses. He was first in UZR and tied for first in DRS. He was very solid last year, but not as good this year. If you could combine his 120 wRC+ his first year with his great defense in 2019, you’d really have something.
He’s just coming into his prime years. I wouldn’t put too much stock either way in what he did this year. He had a rough start.
Again, I like Dejong. I don’t think he’s better than any of the guys I listed that I’d take over him gladly. It’s iffy if I’d take him over a number of others that I also listed. FA money on a Lindor/Seager + the prospect for Dejong >> than Dejong alone, IMO.
So we can just ignore whatever we don’t like when making an argument?
I wouldn’t use July 2019 when trying to determine how good Bader can be. It was a rough month. After all, he’s 10 months younger than DeJong so he’s just getting ready to come into his prime years. He’s not quite there, yet.
Forsch – is this confrontation 101? Or perhaps a debate club? Every post doesn’t need to be a challenge. Does it?
You use every negative tidbit you can about players like Bader that you don’t like and bring him up in multiple threads. Then you choose to use a selected sample that makes a player you like look good and say to basically ignore a sample that doesn’t paint a good light on him because he had a rough start. And you wonder why posters have confronted you? If you were consistent in looking at players you like and dislike for their pluses and negatives, it might be different.
Did you happen to notice that DeJong’s offensive stats over the last 3 years are about equal to Bader’s? Also, Bader was the #1 rated CF by Fangraphs in 2019….by a large margin. He had a poor year this year and was still 8th.
You like DeJong and dislike Bader. I get it. Just don’t expect me to ignore you when you continue to slam Bader and try to paint others that you do like in a better light. I will give you facts to back up my claims as I have always done.
BTW, DeJong was 9th in SS in 2020.
Sounds like a contest. Forsch. On who’s right and who’s wrong. Instead of friendly interchanges between long time loyal Cardinal fans.
It can be a friendly interchange. Just present ALL the facts and leave attacks on players due to personal dislike out of it. Keep an open mind. I don’t like Fowler as a player but I have defended him on this site several times.
Atlanta’s #1 and #2 prospects are outfielders. Cristian Pache and Drew Waters. Pache might cost too much in a trade. Maybe pick up Waters?
Waters and Carlson are similar type prospects. I would imagine that Waters would still be pretty pricey in a trade. I’m not sure what the Braves need to make it a fair trade. Relief help, perhaps, but that won’t get you a top prospect. Reyes, Thompson and Herrera might match up? That’s a big ask, though.
Bc, that deal is too light. Would you deal Dylan Carlson for Bader and Whitley? I’m thinking it would take one of the very good bullpen arms (Gallegos, Reyes, Hicks, maybe Cabrera) plus one of our premium pitching prospects and maybe a near majors player at another position (like Montero, Knizner, Herrera) to get him.
Or maybe ask Boston what they would want for Benintendi. They are probably desperate for pitching.
Benintendi definitely had a disaster of a 2020. His all around game has some appeal but it’s hard to say if he’s a certain upgrade with the bat or in the field in LF.
I think Benintendi is a Carlson clone despite his bad 2020. He was injured.
I wouldn’t mind having two Carlson’s in the OF going forward.
I have higher hopes for Carlson than Benintendi. He only has one post rookie cup of tea season outside the error bar of average with the bat, which is worrisome. He is much better against RHP (.821 vs .691 OPS). If his peak is 120 OPS+, he has some value. Just not big value. If we could get him cheap, I’d be intrigued.
If we trade Bader and Whitley, we’re trading a starting major league center fielder and a top AAA relief pitcher for a top center field prospect. Doesn’t that seem fair? And also notice that Waters doesn’t have much power, and has only played in 26 games at the AAA level.
The Cards are stuck with Fowler in RF next year, Carlson would be fine in CF for a couple of years, so adding a LFer than can hit decently is a must. Fowler will get hurt at some point so O’Neill can get a shot at that point.
Bader needs to go….. I don’t want him to even be an option for MS in 2021.
BC, I’m really not trying to pick on your idea. You know that I’d like to grab an OF prospect from someone too. But would you take Bader and Whitley for Dylan Carlson in a trade? Waters is ranked just behind Carlson and ahead of Kirilloff and many others. MLB OF rankings:
9. Kelenic, SEA
10. Pache, ATL
14. Carlson
15. Julio Rodriguez, SEA
16. Austin Martin, TOR
22. Waters, ATL
24. JJ Bleday, MIA
25. Riley Greene, DET
27. Kirilloff, MIN
39. Kristian Robinson, ARI
45. Alek Thomas, ARI
48. Jason Dominguez, NYY
49. Zach Veen, COL
51. Taylor Trammel, SEAQuantity does not equal quality. Almost always, you want to be the team in the trade that gets the best single player.
Not sure where this goes best, but Red Baron over at VEB had a good article on the Liberatore trade compared to the Wainwright trade back in 2003.
https://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2020/10/26/21518563/matthew-liberatore-john-mozeliaks-adam-wainwright
I thought this was an interesting tidbit, and it’s something I felt like I had read elsewhere before:
Liberatore fell all the way to sixteen despite being ranked fourth on the Pipeline big board; the Rays were thrilled to snatch him up, and I have it on fairly good authority that the Cardinals let out a huge collective groan when he want off the board so close to their position. Just saying. Why am I telling you this? Because if we believe those rankings were valuable at the time, the Cardinals ultimately now possess two of the top twelve players in that year’s draft, and they are on pace to reach the big leagues within the next two years. Maybe that means nothing, but I find it interesting to consider all the same.
It seems like the Cards may have had their eye on Liberatore for a long time as well.
CMart ought to be able to fetch an outfielder on that list if he pitches well at spring training. If so, then 3B is where something needs to happen which at this point means, IMHO, either get a middle infielder and move DeJong to 3B, or get a third baseman that is better than what we have. One thing that’s been said before, and is still true, is that this team needs some star power especially if Yadi doesn’t come back.
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