Cardinals’ Off-season Needs

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  • #145465
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    To be clear, the writer in Minnesota did nothing more than state the obvious. The problem is with the Yahoo person, who took one tweet and turned it into a clear declaration of a future decision that it clearly is not.

    I wrote about it here.

    The Designated Hitter in the National League in 2021 is Not Decided

    #145481
    gscottar
    Participant

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    Well the more I think about it the more I could see MLB and the owners not allowing the NL DH in 2021 because:

    1. It would save money.
    2. It would be a bargaining chip for the CBA.

    Regardless, nothing will be announced until the series is over.

    #145503
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Are the two sides even negotiating right now? if so, it is being done very quietly, which would be a first in itself. It would be really cool if they tie up all the loose ends for the 2021 season by the end of the week, but I wouldn’t give that a snowball’s chance in Hades of happening.

    #145520
    jj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Pederson signing a “re-establish his value” discount contract this offseason seems unlikely to me now. He looks healthy while contributing desirable results.

    #145521
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    No I don’t think they are negotiating right now which is why I thought it was weird that this issue blew up on social media right now.

    #145527
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    It blew up because casual fans (fed by the Yahoo blogger) did not understand that Neal’s tweet was NOT breaking news of a major policy decision by MLB, but instead just a ho-hummer statement of fact that Neal clearly pointed out could change in the future.

    #145596
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    Realistically, the Cardinals could reform their team in the next 2 off-seasons. This off-season has a few free agent OFers who could really help the team. Next off-season, their are quite a few shortstops who will be free agents: Story, Lindor, Seagar, and Baez.

    If the Cardinals are shrewd and willing to raise payroll for 1 year, they could pick up an OFer this year in free agency. Pick up a SS next year in free agency. AND, make a trade for a top 50 rated prospect OFer sometime in that period of time. I think that puts us back to the MV3 days off being a constant World Series threat.

    #145597
    bccran
    Participant

    Some good thoughts, Forsch. Are you planning to move DeJong back to 3B?

    #145600
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    Maybe until Gorman is ready. He could also play 2B or be a trade chip, if necessary.

    #145602
    bccran
    Participant

    If you have DeJong already, and he’s a good SS, why trade him? He’s under control for 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025.

    #145605
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    If you have DeJong already, and he’s a good SS, why trade him? He’s under control for 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025.

    Trade him for prospects. He’s good but not elite and some team would want a good SS who’s not too expensive. We might be able to find our next elite player for him. The Cubs lost Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jimenez that way, and the White Sox Tatis Jr.

    #145606
    bccran
    Participant

    When the Cards are weak at 3B and in the outfield, seems like DeJong should be a core player over some unknown from the outside. Don’t we have one of the best SS-2B tandems in the NL?

    #145607
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    When the Cards are weak at 3B and in the outfield, seems like DeJong should be a core player over some unknown from the outside. Don’t we have one of the best SS-2B tandems in the NL?

    Dejong doesn’t have a strong enough bat for 3B. I’d rather have the prospects if we sign an elite SS. Plus I think Gorman will be a very good 3B so Dejong would be unnecessary. Get value while you can. Right now, Dejong has enough value to bring back a Kirilloff type talent. He won’t lose as much next year if he has another solid season.

    #145608
    bccran
    Participant

    Just seems like if you have one of the best shortstops in the NL, who’s under control for 5 years, you might want to keep him.

    #145609
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Dejong is good, but I can name a bunch of SS who I’d absolutely rather have:

    Seager
    Tatis Jr
    Bogaerts
    Story
    Correa
    Lindor
    Anderson
    Franco

    Several guys who are probably at least as good:

    Turner
    Torres
    Semein
    Swanson
    Baez

    So is he really one of the best SS in the NL? He’s good but if we got one of the guys above, I’d consider that a worthwhile upgrade. Dejong has to prove that he can hit for a whole season.

    #145611
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    bccran

    When the Cards are weak at 3B and in the outfield, seems like DeJong should be a core player over some unknown from the outside. Don’t we have one of the best SS-2B tandems in the NL?

    This is why I don’t understand some of your stances on players.

    Here is a comparison of 2 players over the past 3 years. Both are good defenders at key defensive positions:

    Player A – .238/.317/.428/.744 in 319 games with a 24% K Rate. Above average defense.
    Player B – .234/.326/.401/.727 in 316 games with a 29% K Rate. Elite defense.

    Which player do you want starting on your team?

    #145612
    bccran
    Participant

    25 – I just checked MLB.com for the top 10 players at each position in the majors.
    Here’s where our guys ranked by position –

    C – Yadi #9
    1B – Goldy #5
    2B – Wong #9
    SS – DeJong #10
    3B – no one
    LF – no one
    CF – no one
    RF – no one
    SP – Flaherty #7

    Kind of tells the whole story.

    #145613
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    Just to save you the time, bc

    Player A – Paul DeJong
    Player B – Harrison Bader

    2020 OPS by SS in ML – .748
    2020 OPS by CF in ML – .734

    That’s why some posters are defending Bader. It’s also why I would strongly consider signing a free agent SS who is elite. DeJong is a good player and can play several positions. He could “hold the fort” at 3B or SS but he profiles best at 2B by his offense.

    If the Cardinals could trade DeJong for Kirilloff, straight up, after 2021, I would do it. Then the Cardinals could go after one of the elite shortstops.

    #145616
    jj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Yadi about 15th, declining D and will no longer walk, while chasing hits for his legacy.

    Goldy 5th is fine

    I can’t name 8 2Bmen I’d rather have than Wong, I’ll go 5th

    DeJong around 12th, his D is steady but not elite. Power will return under a normal schedule.

    Bader about 15th I’d accept, but my premium on OF D has him 10th to 12th, for me. I’d put him in a class with Kiermaier and Jackie Bradley Jr

    #145617
    bccran
    Participant

    Here are the top defensive SS, as ranked by fangraphs –

    1.) DeJong
    2.) Baez
    3.) Story
    4.) Semien
    5.) Rojas
    6.) Lindor
    7.) Iglesias
    8.) Ahmed
    9.) Andrus
    10.) Adames

    The grass is always greener.

    #145618
    bccran
    Participant

    Forsch – Bader is too hard of a sell. On all the forums I just checked, you seem to be the only Bader fan.

    #145624
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    If I cared about the other forums, I would be posting on there instead of here. I post here because the vast majority of the fans here care about learning about the players and the game on more than superficial level. They are willing to consider other ways of looking at whether a player is excellent, good, average or below average.

    BTW, I like Bader but he is replaceable. What you won’t find me doing is knocking him because of what ritual he goes through when he’s batting or whether his hat flies off his head. I am also not going to overlook just how valuable he is on defense. He is 4th or 5th on my list of who to replace. In order: LF, 3B, RF, CF/SS.

    You knock Bader because of his offense (which was above average for a CFer) yet you support a SS who, statistically, performed below average with his bat when looking at OPS+. HMMM

    #145625
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    bc, can you post a link to where you found the SS comparison? I am looking for it but can’t seem to find anything like that in fangraphs.

    #145626
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I like Dejong. I still think he could be upgraded as I don’t see him as a championship level shortstop. Not without giving him proper rest, anyway. He goes through stretches where he hits so badly that he shouldn’t be playing at all. I also think that if he could bring us a truly elite hitter who had any position but 1B or DH, I’d make the trade in a second.

    His rank among MLB SS this year:

    WAR-22nd
    BA-22nd
    OBP-19th
    SLG-26th
    WRC+ 24th
    Base Running-25th
    Defense-9th

    #145635
    forsch31
    Participant

    Free

    Bccran, I have been searching all over the Fangraphs site and can find nothing that says DeJong is the #1 ranked SS.

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