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We were in first place until the rotation got decimated. The front office thought we had the internal depth to replace the injuries. We didn’t. So yes, from that point of view, we weren’t built properly.
gscott, no doubt things would’ve gone better without the injuries. It was definitely possible.
Counting on guys like Reyes, Martinez, Mikolas, Miller, Helsley, Wainwright, Hicks, etc., seems like your going in position is you are willing to go with unproven depth to some degree. A lot of risk in that. Thank God for Wainwright.
Unfortunately, the Cards seem to be more and more willing to go with razor thin margins in their risk analysis. In a former career we liked to strategically analyze via SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats) analysis to weigh our comfort level in committing to an operation. When the Cards did whatever form of strategic planning they do for strengths and weaknesses prior to this season, there had to be a few flashing red lights that lowered the expected outcome. The more thin margins you’re dealing with, the more pain to expect. All of that while the threats and opportunities were getting more stacked against them.
I doubt that the Cardinals were much deeper going into even their most successful seasons. They just have never had a rotation decimated like this one. They have always relied on call ups during the year. Both position players and pitchers.
Can’t remember a STL rotation hit this hard by injuries, but I also can’t remember a staff where the rotation depth was this weak.
Gomber has made 19 starts for COL posting a 125 era+ (Flaherty 133, Wainwright 111) Where’s the Gomber depth this season? Gant?
Ownership penny pinched on depth and got burned. Looks like STL will miss out on postseason dollars. Self-inflicted.
They traded their depth and crated a bit of a donut hole. Rightly or wrongly, though, they thought they had depth with Gant, Ponce, and Woodford.
Who could have really predicted the total breakdown of the entire staff except Wainwright and Reyes.They knew Hudson was out .Mikolas had issues.No one expected Poncedeleon to completely bomb,Gant to forget how to find the strike zone,Kim to have issues,Flaherty to miss half the season,CMretinez to belly up and then get hurt.
Tyler Webb went from semi-effective to DFA.Fernandez flopped again Hicks down agswin,Helsley inconsistent,Whitley,Elledge ineffective,Woodford so-so.Andrew Miller..blah.Oviedo overmatched.
Just a perfect storm of injuries,mismanagement and ineffectiveness to sink this team.The injuries and ineffectiveness sunk this team. I’m not totally sure how “mismanagement” played in. The Cards were in the playoffs in 2019 and 2020, and predicted to be in the playoffs in 2021.
The hits keep coming…
Per the Cardinals, LeBlanc left today’s game with “left elbow pain”.
To top it off, Dylan Carlson was taken out due to “right wrist soreness”.
Adam Wainwright tosses a complete game shutout in just 88 pitches! 💎
At 39 years and 346 days, he became the oldest pitcher to twirl a CGSO on 88 pitches or less since pitch counts began being recorded in 1988! It was his 27th career CG. #ToppsNOW: https://t.co/lhd5zDbSlA pic.twitter.com/1UQEDcSeXi
— Topps (@Topps) August 12, 2021
I think not having solid middle relief is part of the mismanagement. That wasnt caused by injuries, it was bad from the start.
2021 middle relief:
After a career season, Webb turned into Brett Cecil.
Brebbia was injured, non-tendered and has 15 underwhelming IP for Frisco.
Gant was forced into a SP role.
Gomber was traded away.
But the one that puzzles me most is Helsley. He was dominant in 2019 and hasn’t been since.
Woodford and Oviedo deserve more time to compete: both have MLB stuff, just need more consistency! Both can be big next year….plus both are solid and don’t get injured, unless most of the staff
The middle relief was neglected for sure. We didn’t have a for sure guy in that lot..I still feel Ponce can offer in that role but with injuries we really never got to see that.
Woodford and Oviedo can be interesting guys moving forward but I like getting a 3-4 and trying to role with Jack, Dakota, Milolas and maybe Waino again ( though not sure on waino. They need a starter, lh bat and some bully help off top.
Woodford and Oviedo deserve more time to compete: both have MLB stuff,
Woodford has been a .500 pitcher with an unimpressive ERA in the minors including at AAA.
Oviedo has done nothing but get crushed above AA and was unimpressive there.
I agree that both could be allowed more time to compete at AAA, especially in the absense of anyone better to take those reps, but I am not sure what could reasonably be expected at this point. Woodford is in his 7th pro year and will turn 25 in October. Oviedo is in his 6th pro season and has never put up impressive results since A level.
I’m not really sold on Woodford, but he’s a decent depth piece to have going forward.
As for Oviedo, I like his talent and think he has a big league future, but BB is right that he has to prove himself in the minors first. Spending more time in Memphis would be valuable, unless they want to may him a bullpen arm.
Speaking of the young arms, Libby, Thompson and Rondon have pitched better lately for Memphis. Libby hasn’t had the results showing as much, but Thompson and Rondon have ERAs around 3 in the last month of games down on the farm. What’s that mean? I don’t know, but it’s better to see them doing well than getting shelled like they were early in the year.
I don’t really know what to think about these pitchers that the Cardinals are skipping over levels. Thompson and Liberatore skipped from A level to AAA. Oviedo skipped AAA. Rondon at least spent significant time at AA and AAA but has been a pretty OK .500ish pitcher above A ball. I get that we have essentially nothing in the upper levels and we are furiously pushing and hyping the best we have, but realistically, none of these guys look like they will be anything but filler at the MLB level.
Look at Dakota Hudson’s stats from AA and AAA. That is what a future MLB rotation piece looks like. I know we need to have hope, but jeesh, come on.
2020 ERAs –
Cabrera – 2.42
Webb – 2.08
Miller – 2.77
Gallegos – 3.60
Gant – 2.40
Reyes – 3.20
Whitley – 1.93That bullpen represents “mismanagement” going into 2021?
2020?
I’d be surprised if anyone on your list had 20 IP.
It’s your list, what is the avg IP for those pitchers total? 10 IP?
2020 doesn’t say much for me due to the small sample size. No-one can change that, but it needs to be factored in, good or bad.
Ideally Woodford, Oviedo, Liberatore, Rondon, and Thompson would not leave Memphis before July 1 next year. They all need more seasoning before being unleashed in St. Louis. That is a pretty good rotation for Memphis though.
As for our middle relief I agree it has been a disaster. In addition to Webb and others mentioned earlier in this thread you also had:
Ponce- ineffective and injured
Whitley- ineffective and injured
Fernandez- ineffective
A. Miller- average and seldom used
Elledge- ineffectiveThe Cardinals really had high hopes for that group and they were a bust.
But the one that puzzles me most is Helsley. He was dominant in 2019 and hasn’t been since.
I agree JJ. Helsey throws 100mph but is very wild and hittable. The hitters must be able to see the ball off of him well. He needs to make some adjustments or go back to Memphis.
I have previously noticed looking at Helsely’s MiLB stats he often had an ERA that was higher than might be expected from his WHIP. Not sure what to make of that. Getting the short end of the true outcomes stick somehow I guess. In any case, MLB hitters can handle the hard stuff now days so you have to have something else going for you. It seems like the hard throwers don’t usually last long enough to find that something else (e.g. Quesada looks like) but Helsley has had some time. Just hasn’t found it yet.
Okay, JJ, let’s go back to full season ERAs in 2019 –
Gallegos – 2.31
Martinez – 3.17
Webb – 3.76
Gant – 3.66
Ponce – 3.70 (2.88 at Memphis)
Helsley – 2.95
Whitley at Memphis – 1.52
Fernandez at Memphis – 1.48
Miller – 4.45Now match that up with 2020 stats and tell me we should have anticipated a bullpen problem in 2021.
The topic WAS middle relief. Now we have Gallegos and cmart?
Webb was dfa’d and I never liked him.
Gant replaced Gomber as sp6, but not in production. Gant over ponce was easy. Dfa ponce and i wouldn’t care.
Helsley has under achieved, I thought he’d be better. I counted him in the 21′ pen.
I don’t know who Whitley and Fernandez are. Are they 40man guys?
Millers always been a bum at stl. He gives you a glimpse of hope and then squashes it.
Penny pinched, mismanaged, etc., middle relief is always the weakest part of the pen. Will be next season too.
I’m sorry, jj, but there was no penny pinching and the bullpen looked fine going into 2021. Must of your comments are all hindsight. They had plenty of depth. You have to rely on experienced guys like Martinez, Gallegos, etc. in addition to talented young guys.
If you don’t know who Kodi Whitley is, you don’t really follow our system. He was drafted out of tiny Mount Olive College in 2017. Here how he did as a relief pitcher coming through our system –
Rookie League ERA – 1.90
A Ball ERA – 2.53
High A Ball ERA – 0.00
AA Ball ERA – 1.84
AAA Ball ERA – 1.55
So far with the St. Louis Cardinals, he’s pitched 15 innings and given up 9 hits. Struck out 13. Unfortunately he’s another guy who went on the DL this season.Junior Fernandez? They’ve had high hopes for him coming through the system, ever since he hit 100 on the gun. In 2019, he started the season at high A, was promoted to AA, and then was promoted to AAA. At all 3 levels he had an aggregate ERA of 1.52. When called up to the Cardinals that same season he gave up 9 hits in 15.2 innings and struck out 16. How many prospects pitch at 4 levels, including the major leagues in one season? Surely you’ve heard of him.
You can’t have all high priced guys in your bullpen. You are always going to have to rely on some young, minimum wage guys to come through for you.
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