Wong Gone (Most Likely)-2021 Option Declined

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  • #146019
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Brian, I’m just still pissed Mo gave Carp that ridiculous extension.

    This team is going to bad next year.

    #146020
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Yep, the Cardinals got caught up in the MLB-wide rush to sign guys to long term deals that spring. Frankly, Carpenter seems a far bigger mistake than letting Arozarena go.

    It is hard to be optimistic about 2021 right now.

    #146021
    Avatargscottar
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    This is a terrible move by the Cardinals. Edman is not an everyday 2B. Besides covid you can lay the blame for this move squarely on the brilliant Carp, Fowler, and Miller contracts among others. CMart’s money looks like a waste too and maybe even Mikolas.

    Pugs you are usually one of my favorite posters but your suggested example of new ownership made me nauseous. I would rather spend everyday at Wrigley Field than see that happen.

    #146022
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    This is a terrible move by the Cardinals. Edman is not an everyday 2B. Besides covid you can lay the blame for this move squarely on the brilliant Carp, Fowler, and Miller contracts among others. CMart’s money looks like a waste too and maybe even Mikolas.

    Yup, over $75M just for those 5 guys. The Cards should have cut Shildt off before Miller’s option vested. I’d certainly rather have Wong on the team next year than Miller. (Even if Miller wasn’t that bad this year, $12M for a reliever in this market is absurd)

    #146023
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    If Brian is correct in that the Cardinals will prevent Carp’s option from vesting, they will have to find someone who can play 3B. Naturally I would have said Edman, but Mo said earlier tonight Edman will replace Wong. So, that leaves Montero, Sosa and Schrock for 3B.

    *YIKES*

    #146024
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    So, that leaves Montero, Sosa and Schrock for 3B.

    *YIKES*

    Don’t forget Gorman.

    #146026
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    The cards front office just keep showing what an incompetent bunch of idiots they are. There is zero confidence that these idiot can put a team back on the field to get to the ws ever again.

    #146052
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Gorman isnt on the 40-man roster which is why I didnt include him. But considering hes never played above AA its still a yikes.

    #146061
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Several previously mentioned the idea of bringing Gorman (or it could be Montero) up mid-season. It wouldn’t and likely will not be on Opening Day. Carp is still going to get his chance first.

    It has been said many times already, but having no minor league season has really been damaging. This afternoon, one of the local TV guys asked Mo if the alternate camp helped guys get closer to St. Louis soomer.

    Mo restated the question his own way. “Was their growth the same if they were at A or High-A?”

    To his credit, he answered himself honestly. “Maybe not.” But he went on to note the extra individualized instruction they received. (Still, I think he knows the 140 games they couldn’t play would have been better than anything alternate camp would provide.)

    #146067
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    Tommy Edman most definitely is an everyday 2B.

    #146071
    AvatarOnyxgem
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    Edman is a utility player not a starting 2b to bad the cards front office decided to just let a GG 2B walk for nothing to downgrade in a big way to Edman…..it is no wonder that everything thinks MO and crew are idiots.

    #146073
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    I think Edman may be OK at 2B. He’s not going to be as good with the glove as Wong. He will hit about the same, so it’s probably a net slight step back. Where the big hit comes is in losing Edman as the backup for 3B, SS and 2B. He wouldn’t be a huge step back from anyone at those positions and is better than Carp at 3B, so you are downgrading two positions slightly and taking a big downgrade at 3B with this move.

    We can say that Dejong will hit .280 before the AS Break and then .175 from July on thanks to having no backup at SS once again.

    #146074
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Onyx, who do you think makes the major money decisions?

    And they didn’t let Wong walk for nothing; they paid him $1 MM to leave! 😉

    JMO, but I think the negative impact to the defense will be more than “slight” and it is probably going to show in pitching results, too. Wong is arguably the best in the game at 2B. It is a major step down to just about anyone. As noted, third got worse, too. Not to mention losing the leadoff man.

    #146087
    ZTRZTR
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    Yeah, unless we are all in for a big surprise, 2021 is going to be a take your lumps year for the Cardinals probably covered over as much as possible by the Wainwright / Molina / Carpenter farewell tour.

    To be fair, the Cardinals have essentially been a .500 baseball team since about the 2015 all-star break with two exceptions – the run right after Schildt took over and the last 5-6 weeks of 2019.

    I really can’t say that the immediate future looks bright. The 2022 team will look nothing like the 2021 team but filling that many holes in the lineup and hitting on all of them is highly unlikely which means that the Cardinals will probably continue to be a deeply flawed team for at least three seasons while completely wasting the good years Goldscmidt has left.

    If I were him I’d demand a trade because he will continue to get nothing to hit for the foreseeable future.

    It does indeed feel like we are about to revisit the 70s.

    #146089
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    ZTR, your assuming ownership will be able to reach agreement with Molina and Wainright. We do not know the size of the 2020 operating loss and net cash flows. Ownership does not have a clear line of sight to 2021 revenues. They have already mentioned they are preparing three scenarios for operating in 2021.

    I am now preparing myself for a worst case scenario – bank the payroll reductions as cost savings to improve the bottom line operating cash flow. That could end up being no Molina, no Wainright and no significant free agent signings. I hope I am wrong.

    #146092
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    I watched Mo’s podcast.

    I was shocked at his appearance.
    He looked like a guy who just came from a 72 hour sleep deprivation experiment.
    He looked whipped, beaten, crushed, sad even.
    I’d say he was the most honest he’s ever been at these end of the season things.
    He made no promises and did not fill anyone with hope…false or otherwise.
    I applaud him for that.
    There was some Mospeak but basically he was very candid.
    They’re not going to bring anyone in from the outside.
    They’ll take 2021 to evaluate O’Neill, Thomas, Carlson and others.
    The 2021 Cardinal roster will come from the people they have right now.
    This was no surprise to me, I knew that would be the case.
    I’m happy that finally, Mo admitted that 2021 is a throw way year.
    I can live with that because there’s nothing anyone can do about it anyway since you can’t add payroll with no gate receipts and because Mo is telling the plain honest truth for a change.
    I do think Mo looks very bad emotionally and psychologically and needs a couple of months at a retreat where he can wear a robe and slippers all day, no phone calls, group sessions and plenty of meditating and chanting to clear his head so he can find the real truth.

    #146095
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Mspaid, you are right. Mo didn’t look like the President of a baseball organization. He looked like a guy who just watched his family member have a surgery that was needed but time consuming. He knows that 2021 could be a very painful year for Cards fans and baseball in general. I still have some hope that we have a couple of useful ballplayers in our OF for 2022 and will have some more funds available to sign a bat or two after 2021 with the expiration of some very bad contracts.

    #146097
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    Tommy Edman most definitely is an everyday 2B.

    No he isn’t. He isn’t half the defender Wong is and not much of an upgrade offensively either.

    #146098
    Avatargscottar
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    Like I said last night Mo sounded like he just came from a meeting with his superiors and the meeting didn’t go at all like he thought it would. I imagine the heat is turning up on him too. He may feel fortunate to have a job right now.

    #146099
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    Like stl25 said last night we would be much better off paying Wong $12M this next year instead of Miller but of course Miller’s option had to vest. I imagine the Cardinals were wary of going out of their way to limit Miller’s appearances this past season. Miller is a high ranking union rep with the MLBPA so any hint of manipulation would have resulted in an immediate grievance being filed.

    #146102
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    He may feel fortunate to have a job right now.

    He definitely should. I don’t know how much of a role Mo had in pressing for all the extensions, but there’s not really one that I can point at now and say it’s looking really good for the Cards with the exception of the Dejong extension. Even the Goldy deal doesn’t look great when you consider that he had such a down 2019 that he may have come $5M a year cheaper if they had waited.

    It makes me wonder…as reactionary as the team usually is, perhaps all these burns will cause them to go the other way and eschew all extensions, even when it might make sense (like Carlson or Gorman in a few years, Flaherty or Hudson, etc). The way this team has worked lately, they’ll probably watch all those guys have good walk years, lose them due to outpricing, and see them be great values for other teams even on big deals.

    #146105
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Miller is a high ranking union rep with the MLBPA so any hint of manipulation would have resulted in an immediate grievance being filed.

    I don’t see how you really win that grievance, anyway. Still, the real travesty was using Miller so much in his down 2019. That ultimately cost them Kolten Wong.

    On that note, it seems that the Cards have gone out of their way to not be ruthless in pursuit of getting all they can from players, whether it be service time in their early careers or things like vesting options. Yet I’ve never heard of St Louis being a destination for free agents even when other teams blatantly have manipulated their players in that way. Guess it doesn’t pay to be the nice guy.

    #146106
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    I think Edman can be an everyday 2Bman next season. I would expect him to land in the top 20. Comparing Edman to Wong is natural, but not the topic. Wong is top 5, so many everyday 2Bman would fall short of that bar.

    #146108
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    Edman is an everyday starting 2nd baseman and will be excellent.

    #146112
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    Edman is part of our youth too. He has 127 more career PA’s than O’Neill and they are the same age. If we’re going to support letting O’Neill develop, same goes for Edman. At his natural position I’m anxious to see what his peak is, but the Wong baggage isn’t Edman’s to carry.

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