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My bet is if they traded gorman. He would suddenly start hitting decently well. That should tell you all you need to know about what the problem is.
bling asked:
Most of the proposals to get rid of Arenado this winter had Gorman taking over at 3B. Now what? He couldn’t even stick as a platoon player.
I have never been among those to believe there is any reasonable chance that Arenado would be traded, but I will play along here.
Donovan can cover third. So can Saggese and Cesar Prieto, currently with Memphis. In addition, the Cardinals could get another third baseman back in the trade or sign one via free agency.
Among the primary reasons Arenado isn’t going to be traded is NOT the question of who will replace him at the hot corner.
Donovan, Saggese and Prieto covering 2nd and 3rd. It’s like sending the JV team out there on Friday night. Gorman flame out changes the outlook, and the possibilities.
“Now what?” That’s easy. You take the Arenado funds and buy pitching. And the following year. And the following year.
Arenado is a 104 ops+. Pallante is a 104 ERA+. Should we pay Andre megabucks? Dump that Arenado contract ASAP, and focus on the rebuild.
We’ve moved two 3Bmen to accommodate Arenado and we have a winter to adjust the roster. A RH bat at UI instead of Crawford next season fits better with Gorman at 3B, as long as his primary position isn’t clubhouse DJ.
If Gorman stays down he will finish 2024 with about 2.096 yrs service time, about two weeks short of super2 status this winter. Rosters expand soon so, TBD.
Because of the downturn in Arenado’s performance already noted, his value is below his contract cost. So my guess is that it would cost the Cardinals money, perhaps significant money, to buy down his contract to trade him. That would cut, perhaps deeply, into the perceived cost savings by unloading him. Not to mention the team’s general reluctance to eat bad contracts. This is why I continue to be very skeptical that Arenado will be traded, at least under the team’s current operating mode.
One site values the remainder of Arenado’s contract at -16mil, and yes, that’s a significant buy down.
Cash isn’t the only option. Positive player value traded with Arenado, to create a value wash, is another option.
Now we have to give up another good player to make Arenado go away? How many good players did you acquire with Arenado’s funds?
It’s the salary structure that needs attacked. And I agree, he likely stays.
Should we pay Andre megabucks?
I can’t even express politely how nonsensical this question is.
Dump that Arenado contract ASAP, and focus on the rebuild.
Yes, there have to be plenty of teams lining up to take on Arenado’s contract given his performance this year! Only for the Cardinals will he have negative value!
We’ve moved two 3Bmen to accommodate Arenado and we have a winter to adjust the roster.
Walker wasn’t moved to accommodate Arenado. He was moved because he was a bad 3B. We go through this 2-3 times per year.
One site values the remainder of Arenado’s contract at -16mil, and yes, that’s a significant buy down.
Cash isn’t the only option. Positive player value traded with Arenado, to create a value wash, is another option.
Now we have to give up another good player to make Arenado go away? How many good players did you acquire with Arenado’s funds?
The Cardinals are reluctant to trade players when they are getting good players back, why would they trade to get rid of a bad player?
In 2024, Arenado has:
– An .817 OPS at home
– A .655 OPS on the roadOPS by month:
March/April: .687
May: .689
June: .702
July: .738
August: .895That looks like a trend.
LA, a new GM gets rid of the past GM’s mistakes, it’s commonplace. He exiles existing players and adds his own. Roster change, thru the contract shuffle, because he has a budget.
What good does it do to worry wart over Gormans platoon partner or where Walker plays, when the big picture needs fixed?
This threads title is the concern. Lets hear the flip side of not moving bad contracts. Or are we already there?
I’m realistic. The ? Is what are the Cardinals going to do? They won’t trade Arenado. Goldy and Gorman will be your DH platoon. Burleson will be your first baseman with Contreras playing first against lh pitching. Donovan second base. Walker rf. Siani cf. They trade Noot and Herrera for an everyday lf. They find a rh bat capable of playing cf. They fire Oli and blame 2024 on him. They reup Gibson not Lance. Tinker with bullpen. Sound about right?
Gorman flame out changes the outlook, and the possibilities.
For the next few weeks it does but I don’t think we need to assume that Gorman’s career is offically over.
I’m realistic. The ? Is what are the Cardinals going to do? They won’t trade Arenado. Goldy and Gorman will be your DH platoon. Burleson will be your first baseman with Contreras playing first against lh pitching.
Under that scenario it might make more sense to try to get Goldy some time at 1B instead of DH since he is still a good defender. You might be able to do a Burly/Goldy platoon at 1B and Gorman/Contreras at DH.
Everything else you mentioned sounds about right.
VS2
Winn
Contreras
Santander
Arenado
Burleson/Goldy
Donovan
Walker
NootFried/Burnes/Snell
Gray
Gibson
Pallante
FeddeThis can be a winning lineup with a winning manager and coaches. If you can swing trades to bring in an outfielder and starting pitcher fine. Im betting on Arenado becoming a higher avg/ obp guy instead of power. Goldy will be fine as platoon against lh pitching. But you can’t penny pinch it. You have to have the top end sp and outfielder to make it work. You want your fans back before 2027?
KCB I don’t have any particular argument about what you lay out, but I think an organization that can’t get anything out of a Gorman, or a Carlson for that matter, should just get out of the baseball business.
Your 100% right Bling. My plan only works if you bring in new people to run the org. You can take my proposed lineup/ pitchers and the group running the show now will find a way to screw it up.
Fixing the Cardinals, and putting a team on the field in 2025 are two separate problems.
Fixing the Cardinals requires changing out the FO, which will either happen or it won’t, so I have instead been thinking about what might happen with the roster before opening day 2025. So far just preliminary thoughts.
My initial thinking is that any fixing will come on the position players side. The rotation seems like it will be Gray, Mikolos, Fedde, Matz, and probably Gibson. That backed by an updated laundry list of Pallante, McGreevy, Graceffo, Roberrse if his arm stays fixed and probably Liberatore because the Earth actually is flat.
So that leaves the position players side where we have no middle of the order bats except accident prone Contreras, with a seemingly nerfed Arenado under contract, and Gorman and Walker not looking like answers as of now and Baker not generating any buzz. Hopefully we are past the lame veteran leadership excuse and will be able to make better use of the bench. That’s all I’ve got as of now.
The last two times the well went dry the drought lasted between 10 and 12 years and we’ve seen extended gaps between championships of 15 and 24 years. It seems like once the apparatus has been bled white it can take a while to breathe some life back into it. I’ve been conditioned to not expect a quick fix.
1tough you are right though technically this drought has been going on for a while discounting a couple of early exits. Have to go back to when we were swept by washington in the nl championship. Had a solid team, just ran into one that was playing better.
1TD – agreed. When do we say the current walk through the desert started?
I will argue for 2016 but some might say the NLCS appearance in 2019 reset the clock while others would point to the 2022 divisional title highlighted by Puhols’ last magic carpet ride.
To me, simply making the playoffs in and of itself only indicates that you don’t have a horrible team, not that you have a good team because the system has become so bloated to ‘keep fans engaged’.
I will stick with 2016 as the beginning of the drought of really good teams in StL but am open to other opinions.
I technically agree with you ZTR although I would back up a few months and say the slide began when we got punked by the Cubs in the 2015 NLDS. Not only were we bounced and humiliated by our fiercest rival but Mo seemed to try to emulate the Cubs by drafting these big free swinging position players which hasn’t worked out very well at all. He also thought he was one upping the Cubs by poaching Dexter Fowler a year later. That didn’t work either.
We have been on a slow glide downhill ever since although things did stabilize and briefly brighten under Shildt, only for him to be inexplicably fired a couple of years later and replaced by a guy who had managed class A baseball. A combination of a complete lack of imagination by our front office and tight budgets from ownership we find ourselves playing home games in front of around 10k spectators.
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