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FWIW, Jeff Jones is backing Ward and putting the blame on the hitters.
I have covered two Cardinals teams where it was abundantly clear that it was time to fire the hitting coach. This is not one of those teams. This is a team whose important players need to hit before they get someone scapegoated:https://t.co/nrSCNet1rD
— Jeff Jones (@jmjones) May 3, 2024
I disagree with those who suggest depth is a problem for the Cardinals offense. The only exposed position was outfield and no one can adequately plan for three starters going down with injuries at once.
The problem is that hitters who hit well before are not hitting as well now. Yet, they have to go with the guys who brung them… Expecting magic from the minor leagues to fix everything is not realistic.
You conveniently forget about AA guy Scott hitting .085 because there was no one besides the desiccated remains of Crawford backing SS. (And there still isn’t)
Scott and Crawford are unrelated.
Scott was brought up because Carlson, Edman and Nootbaar were down with injuries.
Crawford was brought in because Edman was penciled in as the starting CF, meaning we need a backup SS.
Now, if we had a team full of super utility guys that can play SS & CF waiting down at Memphis, both of those issues could have been avoided. But none of the utility guys at Memphis play OF, and it doesn’t seem they play SS, except in a pinch.
Coming into the season CF was Edman, Carlson, and Nootbaar (in a pinch). Depth at AAA was Scott and Antico. That’s a pretty good plan. But the first 3 all got hurt at the same time.
Coming into the season SS was Winn, Edman, ?, Donovan for short term emergency, Gamboa. That’s why they signed Crawford. That depth was poor.
Richie Palacios OPS+ 162. Highest OPS+ on Cardinals roster Contreras 150. Don’t ask about second highest, it’s too depressing. But its nobody’s fault, nobody needs to leap to the FO’s defense.
Can Fermin play SS? I don’t recall him playing much there in MLB but has he done it in the minors? If so what was the need to sign Crawford? Unless it was part of Mo’s directive to get more experience. A lot of good that has done for us.
Palacios is off to a great start, but is being used exclusively as a platoon player. Credit the Rays for avoiding his weaknesses. But Kittredge has been excellent for the Cardinals, too. What can’t some folks accept a trade that seems to be working for both sides?
Fermin has played some shortstop. I guess the Cards were not sold on him enough to avoid signing Crawford. The uncertainty and delays in Edman’s recovery likely played into it, too.
What can’t some folks accept a trade that seems to be working for both sides?
1. The Cardinals traded a position player with 5 years of control for a reliever with one year of control. That position player was the only one really hitting in the second half of last year.
2. The Cardinals offense is inept
3. If the Cardinals hitters don’t start hitting, Kittredge’s biggest value to the Cardinals will be at the trade deadlineCan Fermin play SS?
He has played 7 games at SS this year, 8 last year, 14 in 2021
We had a full-time good hitter (with questionable defense) in RF. We had a full-time good hitter in LF. We had a full-time average hitter in CF. And we had a backup to all those positions in Carlson. Plus Burleson and Donovan. They also had Siani and Scott. There was no room for Palacios. He is a poor center fielder anyway so he couldn’t have been a backup there other than for a partial game replacement.
They also had a bullpen issue where they needed guys we could count on to lock down late innings.
No one could have or should have known that the entire Cardinals offense besides Contreras would decide to take April off. Every rating group had them at average or better compared to other teams. That made Palacios, our 6th outfielder, expendable. They chose Carlson, Nootbaar, Walker and Donovan over Palacios. Will that be seen as a mistake in the future? Perhaps. But it made sense. And besides, Kittredge has been fantastic. So they got something they desperately needed for someone they didn’t really have a place for.
Far as the hitting goes, it’s hard to say. With goldy n arenado it could be just age n injury. You never know when exactly that day will come with players cause it varies but it comes for most and suddenly they are having far more bad days than good. With younger guys that have shown they can hit, then coaching can be an issue. Our pitching has been overall pretty good which I expected. I’m just not sure with the age factor they would hold up over the long haul. I’m still not. That’s why it would have been nice while we are pitching well, if our hitting had been there so we could build up some wins before age caught up with our pitchers. Now if our pitching does go sour because of injuries n such, and we still don’t hit, it’s going to really get bleak. I’m still blaming management regardless. But time will tell.
We had a full-time good hitter (with questionable defense) in RF.
Sophomore slumps happen all the time, that’s why they are a thing. His defense wasn’t questionable last year, it was disastrous. So far this year, he has exceeded expectations on defense, but his offense is now the atrocity.
We had a full-time average hitter in CF.
What makes Edman so valuable is his versatility. The Dodgers add 1-2 WAR to a player’s value based on how many defensive positions they play and how well. Edman always should have been schedule as the super-utility player, playing every day, because it extends the lineup. If you have people like Edman as your “bench”, then you don’t need people like Crawford on the team.
Plus Burleson and Donovan.
Burleson is not an OF. I thought it was you that made a post yesterday indicating how Leahy was a victim of Burleson’s inability to run at an even average speed. The Cardinals only use him as an OF because he hasn’t hit well enough to be a DH and Goldschmidt is the 1B. Now, if Goldschmidt ever does turn it on this year, he will surely be traded at the deadline, opening up 1B for Burleson.
There was no room for Palacios.
Palacios has options, doesn’t he? And if you cast Edman and Donovan as your utility players and have an actual bench instead of a “hope we don’t have to use” bench, then all of a sudden there is room for Palacios.
He is a poor center fielder anyway so he couldn’t have been a backup there other than for a partial game replacement.
Nootbaar is your 3rd CF. He grades as well in CF as do Edman and Carlson (statistically, there is no difference between a 91% success rate and a 92% success rate). Palacios grades much better in the OF than Burleson (who is NOT an OF). Even if he is a poor CF, Scott’s positive defensive value overwhelms his negative offensive value. Would the inverse have been true for Palacios, or would he have been roughly break-even?
I’d say everything you mentioned about Edman is true, however I feel his most valuable asset is the ability to come around and cross HP. He’s scored 343 times in less than 600 games. We’ve been reminded in the last month or so that runs are still important in the game of baseball…
I also agree that Burleson is a substantial liability in the OF, but he sure did display a nice glove, spin and throw to nail a baserunner at 2B for an OF assist the other day. I thought it was Larry Walker for a second…Haha!
The Palacios deal irked me as he looked good last year and seemed like a guy trending upwards. Plus he is more athletic than some of the guys we had. I thought he would make the roster if retained. I would take that over a guy that pitches one inning every two or three games, and is not worth much of anything in games you are trailing.
Still though, Kitty has excelled when called on and at least this is one deal where we got something in return that has helped. It’s early and for now I call it a slight loss, but not as bad as many of the deals Mo has made the last few years.
I feel like we like to cherry pick using hindsight to show how everyone but us is stupid, which is really easy to do. But no one is bringing up Lane Thomas or Randy Arozarena this season because they are actually worse than our guys. Palacios has a few good weeks hitting in certain matches that favor him and now it’s a travesty. Even though Kittredge has been incredibly good and has likely saved us in several games, the deal is terrible. When the Cards don’t trade a rookie for a veteran that they need they are idiots. When they trade a rookie for a veteran they need, they are idiots. When they trade a semi young player who is doing well like Sosa for a no name reliever like Romero, they are also idiots, at least for the first few weeks after the trade when Sosa had several hits. If you pick the right timing, and use selective hindsight, you can always be right.
All I see is they traded from a position of strength for a position of need and so far hit the jackpot with Kittredge. I don’t care what Palacios does because he had no position. Besides, we got him for nothing and got value for him. No matter how good he turns out, this was still a great move so far for the Cardinals.
Sorry I’m whiny tonight! I usually appreciate your insight LACardFan. But I do get tired of all the cherry picking hindsight that occurs. Palacios might be good. I’m the one that first called his name out on here before he reached the majors as someone we wanted to protect. I like his approach to hitting. But I was also happy that we actually pulled the trigger and potentially sold high on a player when we were in a position of strength to get something we needed. Imagine if we’d sold high on O’Neill? So I think it was a good move, regardless of what happens with Palacios.
I assess a deal when it is made and try to give my reasoning. Then later in hindsight it is interesting to look back see how it worked out. When I talk about Palacios it is the thoughts I had when we made the trade. It will take a few seasons to know if it worked out or not.
Usually I prefer trades where we deal older guys for younger guys. Over the years my views on trades are sometimes right, sometimes wrong. One of my biggest misses was the McGwire deal. I hated that trade, but it worked out. I also hated the Mulder trade and that one was a bad one. So sometimes you call it correct, sometimes management was shrewd when you think they missed one.
jnevel – You and I agree quite often.
I didn’t like the Palacios trade at the time, because he was the one bright spot in our dismal year last year.
I wasn’t going to say anything about Palacios/Kittredge, but this is the second time Brian has asked the same question in a week. That gets tiring.
This site becomes toxic if you criticize the Cardinals management for not being the “greatest.” Well, enjoy our last place teams for awhile, because they’ve been on this trajectory for years.
And here, I will cherry-pick some stats on the Cardinals trading outfielders for relievers.
Career:
Randy Arozarena: 10.6 bWAR
Mathew Liberatore: -0.5 bWARLane Thomas: 5.5 bWAR for Nationals
Jon Lester (starter, not a reliever): 0.1 bWAR for Cardinals2024:
Richie Palacios: 1.0 bWAR
Andrew Kittredge: 0.6 bWARTyler O’Neill: 1.0 bWAR
Nick Robertson: 0.1 bWAROr from the “what have you done lately” department:
2024 Arozarena -0.5 bWAR
Liberatore 0.32024 Thomas -0.7
Lester golf handicap 5I just don’t understand the high level of concern over a trade that is currently scored 0.6 to 1.0 WAR… It is not even close to the other imbalanced ones cited. As explained in detail, at the time, the move was logical.
I only mention Kittredge when folks bring up Palacios without noting the other half of the trade. If that is tiring, the simple solution is to not bring up Palacios so often!
By nature, people disagree on forums and as long as the discussion is civilized, logical and grounded in fact, I can’t see how that is toxic. It would be boring if everyone saw everything the same way.
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