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I just think finding guys for the pen is easier than finding starters and position players. Relievers are a dime a dozen. The trick is to find the right dozen.
The Cardinals could put Thompson and Liberatore in the pen if they wanted to. They could Matz in the pen if they acquire another starter. They could have Graceffo, Roby, Robberse, and Kloffenstein in the pen by the all star break for all we know. It wouldn’t be the first time they have intitated young prospects by putting them in the pen.
My point is that investing big dollars in the pen is usually a waste of payroll space unless you are acquiring the very elite relievers. If we think signing Hader for $100M and forfeiting another pick is the right move then ok. At least he is elite. I can’t think of any other FA relievers still available that are elite. There is a bunch of filler though. There might be some good releivers available by trade too.
To me it isn’t about being scared. It is about being realistic about how to allocate resources. As has been pointed out to me a few million times we can’t spend like the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, and Phillies so we have to spend wisely. I say invest in another starter.
I’m with you mostly on this one GScottar. Hader is too costly. I’d be supportive of signing Hector Nerris. But I think that’s it for FA relief options. Otherwise, we have tons of internal options to fill out the pen who are just as likely to be successful.
I think at this point, it’s either sign or trade for another starting pitcher or do nothing but acquire a couple minor league AAAA guys.
I wish we hadn’t signed Lynn and upgraded the rotation with higher upside. But we did and this is just now where they’re at.
Yeah, not only are they plentiful, gscottar, but BP arms seem to always be a dice roll. One season a guy is lights out and the next season he can’t get anyone out. Even many of the so called elite type closers seem to cave all at once. They get slapped around a few times and quickly deteriorate into a mental basket case.
Hader signs with the Rangers. Just announced on MSN.
At least that’s what the headline said. I can’t seem to find it now, was going to provide the link.
Who knows, I guess.
Website that has about everything.
Monty’s 2023 1st half, as a Cardinal:
21 GS, 6-9 W/L, 6 no decisions, 7-14 team W/L, 57% QS%, 5/100mil+ FA (est).
This is the impact the bullpen and the lineup/D, had on Stl Monty’s 2023. His pitcher numbers are fine. His team numbers aren’t.
The lineup and bullpen regulars remain. Some fringe housekeeping has been done, but overall….
Will our pen/lineup have this effect on Gray, Gibson and Lynn?
A 7-14 team W/L, from a current top FA SP’r, that many still want back, deserves consideration as to what wrecked his season on the team level.
I would not go to Microsoft (MSN) for my news, but to each his own. FWIW, it seems a lot that is quoted here from there is wrong.
it seems a lot that is quoted here from there is wrong.
A lot of that is they post misleading click bait headlines and then people don’t read the article to find out the headline didn’t mean what they thought.
Hmmm, crickets.
I thought for sure Monty’s 2023 w/STL (7-14 W/L) would promote a discussion on whether signing him today would add the best impact to our current roster.
Bigger picture: will our current pen and lineup/D have the same effect on Gray, Gibson and Lynn?
Eh, give it another day I guess.
IMO gscottar’s post yesterday is spot on. Salary $$ should be allocated for finding another starter at #2.Unless you go for an elite bp arm everyone else is a crap shoot. We probably have an equal or better chance of getting in-house help.
How do we prevent the 7-14 W/L from becoming 10-20 next season, if the in-house options are unchanged?
How can we better win at the team level?
JJ, the numbers you throw out regardging Monty make a compelling argument but to play devil’s advocate I will throw out there that if he were to come back to St. Louis I believe the 2024 rotation would be on much more solid footing than it was in 2023, which should lead to more wins, which should lead to less frustration and pressure.
To me a rotation of Gray, Monty, Mikolas, Gibson, and Lynn is more solid than Monty, Mikolas, Flaherty, Waino, and Matz.
And how do we know our defense will not be better in 2024? Perhaps we will have a more set lineup. Perhaps Walker will improve in RF. Perhaps Winn will settle in at SS and Edman in CF? Perhaps we will see less of Burly in the field.
I get the rotation upgrade. I wanted to dump the budget on a SP1 & SP2, and wing it!
Well, wing it is still available, but choices have been made too. I’m looking for the wins, in the FO roster “right now”.
I guess I’m the holds and saves advocate for discussions sake 🙂
I am ALL in favor of having a dominating bullpen. in 2016 Cleveland rode their bullpen all the way to Game 7 the World Series by shortening games. I just can’t figure out the formula to build one.
Monty’s poor team w-l was due to several factors, the wretched rotation being foremost IMO. The rotation has been enhanced with “innings depth”, which will allow the pen to be much better completely apart from any personnel changes. A better pen will give the starters a better chance and the team a better chance. Whether defense and field management will be any better is another issue.
I am confused by the logic. If the pen let Monty down (turned a lead into a deficit), then he would receive a no-decision, not a loss. The only exception would be if the pen let enough of his inherited runners score to flip the lead.
Rather than guess about this, I took a quick scan of his game log. Monty lost nine games with the Cards in 2023. There is a common thread, but it isn’t the relievers.
In seven of those nine full games (not just while he was pitching), the offense scored three or fewer runs. Six times, they scored two or fewer runs. The Cardinals were shut out in three of his April losses, starting the season on the wrong foot. Only once when the offense gave him more than four runs of support in 2023 did he lose.
In his nine losses, the offense scored an average of 2.56 runs during the entire game.
So the data tells me that it was the lack of offense, not the pen (or the rest of the rotation or the defense), that contributed most to Monty’s losses.
Well our offense does sputter sometimes. But our bullpen also sputtered a lot. The guys we have there we have had for a couple to a few seasons. Expecting them to magically improve is kind of the same losing mindset ownership has. Sure there may have been times they were overused because of starters but there were plenty of times they struggled even when rested. I think there are guys to get that can do the job. Again doing the same thing expecting a different outcome is a fools errand. At least with some new guys, you can actually say you tried if it doesn’t work out. This team has far more money to spend if they want to. It’s funny, I know it says cardinalnation at the top of my screen but it sometimes feels like it’s cubnation around here.
Well if they were to sign Montgomery one of 2 things will probably have to happen after he signs, Matz is 1) traded or 2) Matz is moved to the bullpen (Lynn could go to pen instead but I doubt that happens)
If Matz is traded, maybe the Mets are desperate for a starter, that saves some $ to pay for Montgomery’s salary this and next year.
I still think they sign 2 relief pitchers which was somewhat reported they were looking to do after Gray’s signing
I still am unclear on their budget though….it looks like they have added around $8 million in projected salary so far according to spotrac who have them around $165.5 million right now
I agree, Willie. I have said I believe the 2024 pen as it exists now is weaker than the 2023 version.
But here, I was addressing the specific question of Monty’s losses. It doesn’t look like it was the pen’s fault.
Oh I wasn’t addressing you Brian. That’s a good observation by you on montys starts though. For a team that had a lot of pitching issues,
our offense wasn’t always the best either. Regardless of our pitching we need a more consistent offense.
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