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For the record, whether he sucks as a result of mental health issues or physical issues really doesn’t make a difference to a fan. All human sympathies can still be there for either, but, at the end of the day, fans just want to see the team win.
I feel for Fowler regardless of the realities of his depression. It’s not easy for anyone when they lose their mojo, and it is human nature to blame everything possible to explain it away.
I actually believe he will be much better this year. I’m just not sure if that’ll be enough to justify starting him over Martinez and/or O’Neill.
It’s a pity, but I no longer have access to the PD and Goold’s work. I’m not sure why. I regularly read the New York Times on line, but one day the gods of the internet started blocking the PD. Something to do with the European Union and data protection. Why that should affect the PD and not the NYT escapes me. In any case I never got to see the Goold chat with Dexter.
For anyone on a computer in the US, you can read most Post Dispatch articles by clicking on what looks like a sheet of paper with writing on it on the right side of the address bar on the top of the page when you pull up the article.
I dont see why a sensible discussion of these issues that he has brought to light via the media is in any way unhealthy.
Our curiosity isnt a bad thing, but determining value of the discussion on whether it matters or not seems anti-the whole point of a community message board
I think we can be respectful to the potential seriousness of the issue at hand while also probing the information shared to try to better understand what is going on. Even if that doesnt result in anything changing other than stemming our own curiosity or working through our thoughts on what it may mean seems an entirely fine line of discussion
Goold was very careful (As he said in the chat the other day) to use the words Fowler said in his description of his feelings and what happened. I think we can look at what Fowler said and try to infer information or tease out more meaning if we want. Goold seemed to allow for that in how he presented it IMO.
The difference between an excuse and a reason is subjective, and in that lies what many seem to be remarking on.
What I have been thinking about has been this information combined with the commitment by the club to Fowler as the RFer. Fowler last year seemed to be saying he needed to play to fix his issues to get his production up. That is fine, i get that, but is it really the best solution if he is having psychological issues? I dont know. If his poor play exacerbates his depression, should we really be sending him out there to potentially sink him further into an area that seems strife with complications to his psyche?
I dont know, none of us are saying we know. But having a venue for us to talk about it i think can be helpful.
Fowler last year seemed to be saying he needed to play to fix his issues to get his production up. That is fine, i get that, but is it really the best solution if he is having psychological issues?
It is the only known cure for Bench Warming Sadness Syndrome.
Thanks forsch31.
Alas I am not on a computer in the U.S.
When I call up the PD website I get a white page with this message:
451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact sitehelp@stltoday.com or call 314-340-8888.There is nothing to click on.
I have no problem reading the New York Times or the Washington Post or, thank goodness, watching mlbtv in season.
I think it’s high time you sell the villa in southern France and get on back to where the buffalo still roam, Cardinal In France! The PD awaits your presence.
Mr. Addams: My family back in Texas has been singing that song for 17 years now, but whenever I think of giving up my view of the Pyrenees, packing away the floppy beret and dusting off the ol’ J.B. Stetson, my courage fails. But I do go back every year or so to cram in as many ball games as I can in a few weeks.
I am not a fan of Fowler, but if the FO and Schildt decide he is the starter in RF, then they should hit him 8th. Perhaps even 9th, with the pitcher hitting 8th. HIs one strength besides the disastrous 2018 is his OBP. Hitting him 9th would maybe get him better pitches with Carp leading off behind him, and/or perhaps setting the table for Carp. I personally hope O’Neill gets every chance to be the starter, but if not, I think Fowler should bat at the bottom.
The #STLCards have other options, but Mike Girsch remains hopeful that Dexter Fowler will be the team's starting right fielder in 2019. pic.twitter.com/tqP2qB3voE
— MLB Network Radio on SiriusXM (@MLBNetworkRadio) January 4, 2019
I’m probably being naïve in this, but I’m mildly relieved that Girsch is at least presenting the façade of an actual Spring Training competition for the right field spot.
The question becomes, if everyone is healthy leaving Florida, how much better than Fowler would Tyler O’Neill or Jose Martinez have to be, in order to claim the Opening Day RF slot? Would it require an advantage of 250 OPS points? 300? 400? Even more? (It’s likely a LaRussian style spring training competition, i.e., a competition in name only. But one can dream, can’t one?)
I wrote Fowler off completely. I now look at him as a reclamation project we picked off the scrap heep for free.
If he spent time working with Bonds this winter, that at least meant he spent time working.
I’m thinking .285/.370/.400 and we’ll all be pleased. If he plays like last year, the job will be handed to O’Neill or Martinez to avoid an insurrection.I’m not fond of re-animating this thread, however I’m afraid it is necessitated by a recent statement from one of our local scribes. But before discussing that, a quick recap.
This thread began way back on May 13th, when Dexter Fowler had a nightmarish .545 OPS. The participants of this website got it right, as they wanted Fowler to be either shunted into a platoon role, reduced to pinch-hitting exclusively, or traded/released before he could do any more damage to the team. (At VEB someone quite predictably used so-called advanced analytics to “prove” that Fowler was going to be much better any minute, because he’d merely had “bad batted ball luck.” If those folks over there were half as smart as they think they are, they’d be twice as smart as they actually are.)
Anyway Matheny, stoic that he is, stuck with him. He kept him in the starting lineup for another entire month, during which Dexter raised that OPS all the way up to a dreadful .562. That brings us to June 12th, that fateful date.
On June 12th here were the OPS numbers for Redbird outfielders:
Jose Martinez .913
Tommy Pham .786
Tyler O’Neill .768 (He’d been in the minors since the end of May, though, where he had a 1.004 OPS)
Harry Bader .767
Marcell Ozuna .737
Dexter Fowler .562And so, mercifully, finally, Fowler was benched. It is rumored that on June 12th the expression “better late than never” was spoken more frequently in the St. Louis metropolitan area than on any date since Jeff Fisher’s firing. After starting 48 of the first 64 games of the season, and being quite clearly the 6th-best outfield option, Dex was benched. (When I say 6th-best, I know I might be short-changing some of the AA and AAA guys who could easily have topped a .562 OPS. I apologize to them.)
And now, gentle Redbird fans, Derrick Goold wants us to believe that Dexter Fowler was benched too soon. No, really. The craziest thing is, he endorses Fowler’s assertion that he was mistreated by Matheny when benched on June 12th — but in the next breath Goold astonishingly claims he isn’t taking any sides or expressing any opinion of his own. As an exercise in both illogic and hypocrisy, it was surreal to read. Excerpts:
“I have not offered an opinion at all on these things, chiefly because I don’t really have one. What I have attempted to illustrate is that Fowler has a point when he talks about the inconsistent playing time.”
If you believe that you “illustrate that Fowler has a point,” then by definition you are agreeing that he has a point in the first place. That’s a very important distinction. Goold is not simply articulating Fowler’s nonsensical point that he was benched too soon, and leaving it at that. No. Goold is expressly claiming that “Fowler has a point.” That’s a statement of opinion.
“I have attempted to explore this notion by pointing out how his playing time shriveled in the month before Matheny’s firing, and that he did not get what he said he needed to get right.”
There’s nothing to “point out.” Of course his playing time “shriveled.” He was benched. Rightly benched, after an horrific 2 1/2 month slump, with numerous better players available, for a team trying to make the postseason. There is no “notion” that needs to be “explored.”
Fowler wanted an infinite amount of playing time to try and get right. That’s a natural and normal thing, for a professional athlete. And no, he did not get that infinite amount of time to get right. It is absolutely true that Fowler did not get the time that Fowler wanted. But Goold acts as though by definition this means that Fowler was ill-used. That Fowler “has a point.” And that makes zero sense.
The real question isn’t “Why didn’t Fowler get more time to get right?” The real question is, “Why on earth did Matheny wait so long before finally benching him, with so many better choices available?”
“I’ve taken no stance on whether Matheny’s move was correct or whether Fowler would have stirred from his slump giving the playing time. Again, I don’t have one. I just want to make it clear that Fowler has a point…”
When you repeatedly state that someone “has a point” and you furthermore never present the other side of the argument, you are defacto taking a stance. And no, Fowler does NOT have a point. The mere fact that he was benched is NOT any sort of a POINT. At all.
Because when Dexter Fowler was finally benched, every one of the four necessary conditions for benching a veteran professional athlete was quite clearly met:
1) Veteran is playing very poorly
2) Veteran has been given a lot of rope
3) At least one clearly superior choice is available
4) Every win mattersIf Fowler had been OPSing .670 or .690, maybe he would have a point — but again, he was at .562. With his good baserunning and below average defense, that made him one of the 3 or 4 worst players in major league baseball.
If he’d been benched in early-mid May, perhaps then he’d have a point. But he was given until mid-June, nearly 40% through the season to snap out of it. (This was nothing like 2017, by the way. Not remotely similar. In 2017 Fowler’s OPS never dropped below .710 after May 8th, and never below .730 after May 28th.) If Goold believes that Fowler “has a point” then I’d really, really like to know exactly when the BBWAA prez thinks a guy on a negative 3 WAR pace should be benched.
If, as with the Allen Craig/Oscar Taveras kerfuffle of 2014, the likely replacement for Fowler was also having a poor year, then maybe Dexter would have a point. But as shown above, five other Cardinal outfielders had an OPS at least 175 points above Fowler’s on the day he was removed from the starting lineup.
Or finally, if the Cards hadn’t needed every win, then there might be an argument for Fowler. But as we all know, then as now, every win counts.
I’m so glad that Al Gore invented the internet, because I might otherwise have spent the last hour drinking heavily or punching walls. This way I feel cleansed, much more like Peter Finch in Network — but for the computer generation!
Bob, if the data is easy for you access, it would help to see the at-bats or plate appearances of the various outfielders during the key periods of time you mention – up to June 12 and then the next month until Matheny was fired. OPS is one view, but since the primary point is about playing time, that data would be important. Thanks.
Bob, I know how frustrating the Fowler situation is. There have been some media outlets that have and will continue to support Fowler’s “point”. It seemed to be an excuse. His defense was also growing worse by the day… almost lackadaisical.
Some scribes went with the story that Fowler was now depressed. With Matheny gone, he got what he wanted… playing time from Shildt. This we were told was to get – last in, first out – playing time to improve his game. My, my, what a joke.
Fowler’s contract was based on that one 2016 season with the Cubs. Either Mozeliak is covering up his poor decision (Dexy signing) or he actually believes DF’s “point” along with the other excuses.
The tail is wagging the dog in this organization on Mo’s watch. Fowler has Mozeliak right by the jewels. Does this happen anywhere else in MLB?
For this and the fact the he signed him for outrageous money AND for four years, he should be shown the door. FIRED.
I always wonder what players we could have signed with that Fowler bundle.
If those folks over there were half as smart as they think they are, they’d be twice as smart as they actually are.)
Bob, this quote describes Goold very accurately also. His chat sessions are almost unbearable for me because of all of his condescending replies. It seems to really trouble him to have to spend time trying enlighten all of the rubes out there in Cardinal land.
Their would be no “point” to defend regarding Fowler if he was on a cheap one year deal because he would be gone. The only “point” Mo and, now it appears Goold, is trying to defend is the fact that Fowler is still owed $49M. THAT IS THE ONLY REASON HE IS STILL ON THE ROSTER. All of the other stats are meaningless in this discussion.
Ny, your wife and I are only suggesting this for health reasons. We have your best interests in mind. We want you to be with us for many years more criticizing the Cardinals! 😉
Hey, I am a very proud Cardinal fan, ask any of my family or friends. There are two major problems that I believe are detrimental to the team and costs us wins. This is one of them.
I spend a lot time on the affiliates… more satisfying, less bs. 🙂
Twenty-one pages and going strong. This baby just may rival “War & Peace” in longevity before the last post is one day finally submitted on this controversial yet meaningful thread. I would like to pose this question yet once again…..WHAT IS WRONG WITH DEXTER FOWLER AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE? So beautifully and succinctly phrased by this thread’s esteemed author, Scotty. Many possibilities exist, but it is still not a difficult task to correctly answer….and I don’t believe it takes 800 words to accomplish the feat. So if I may, for the rest of today, I would like ALL posters to revisit this thread’s title and then post your response in 44 WORDS OR LESS. Gracias.
The logical solution would be to give him the month of April to prove himself and if he doesn’t then make him the 4th or 5th OF and explore dumping him in July. Unfortunately, there are 49 million reasons why this won’t happen.
Spring Training is his chance. He has to show up with the bat AND the defense. It doesn’t matter if it is ST or against big leaguers or future minor leaguers. He has to perform. If he doesn’t he starts as a part time player and has to earn his starting role back. That also assumes, JMart and ONeill play better than him in Spring Training.
I don’t want to waste one regular season game on trying to “fix” Dex. Spring Training is the chance.
“This baby just may rival “War & Peace” in longevity before the last post is one day finally submitted on this controversial yet meaningful thread.”
More like War & War for me, Mr. Addams. This thread really brings out my pugnacity.
“His (Derrick Goold’s) chat sessions are almost unbearable for me because of all of his condescending replies. It seems to really trouble him to have to spend time trying enlighten all of the rubes out there in Cardinal land.”
I almost feel a little sorry for him sometimes, gscott. Goold does seem to having less fun than he used to. But then, three years without the playoffs has somewhat soured the entire St. Louis baseball community, as it were. (It doesn’t help that the Rams left town and almost immediately became great.)
The thing about Goold, I used to hold him in very high esteem. Good wordsmith, rigorous mind, patient with fans. But it looks like he’s been absorbed over the past couple of years by the Twitter sensibility, i.e., preferring feelings to facts. In a bizarre microcosm of his generalized decline, Goold refuses now to use classic vivid imagery to describe an outfielder’s powerful throwing arm. Won’t say “howitzer” or “cannon” or “rifle.” Might somehow hurt someone’s feelings by obliquely evoking notions of violence and militarism. Or some such blather. (Pointless aside: this reminds me of Keith Law saying he’ll never watch The Godfather because it depicts Italian Americans in an unfavorable light. Deep thinker, that guy. Mustn’t participate in anything that might have hurt anybody’s feelings, at any time.)
But I do not respect the way that Derrick has tried to sell us Dexter — both as a ballplayer and as a suddenly sympathetic depressive. (Not clinically depressed, mind you. I mean, maybe clinically, but maybe not. The P-D writers & Fowler are conveniently playing that one both ways. But the important thing is that we should be sad, that Dexter is sad. Or was sad. And therefore we need to help make him un-sad. Because Dexter’s feelings are of course more important than all of his teammates put together. Dexter must be prioritized. And how do we make Dexter un-sad? We give him whatever he wants, like a screaming 3-year-old. We play him every day! Probably need to bat him near the top of the lineup, also. You know, for protection. (Not that the protection did him any good in 2018.)
Goold wants us to believe Dexter was turning things around under Shildt, even as he admits there is scant evidence. Feelings over facts. Goold has contempt for everyone who wants Carpenter to hit leadoff — even though there is no evidence yet that he can hit anywhere else. Again, it isn’t the disagreement that is off-putting. It’s his unshakeable disdain, his CERTAINTY that he’s right and you’re wrong, even though every bit of objective evidence is in YOUR favor, not his. Feelings over facts.
(It reminds me of when during a Q & A chat someone showed Ben Fredrickson the outstanding Redbird bullpen numbers during the six years under Derek Lilliquist. BenFred’s response was: “I don’t care about the numbers. I know the bullpen management was bad.” Again, feelings over facts.)
Goold gives of his time. His chats are epic in length, and I applaud him — and Keith Law for that matter, and BenFred, for the identical reason. But God bless them all, I wish they’d all get off of Twitter and go pick up a copy of The Art Of Clear Thinking by Rudolf Flesch. And binge watch about 40 episodes of South Park, because that show has the best BS detector in TV history. And it does not truck with ideologues.
“Bob, if the data is easy for you access, it would help to see the at-bats or plate appearances of the various outfielders during the key periods of time you mention – up to June 12 and then the next month until Matheny was fired. OPS is one view, but since the primary point is about playing time, that data would be important. Thanks.”
I guess I’m a bit dense. I’m not sure precisely what you’re looking for, Brian. But anyway, I’ve bloviated and researched so much during the past 24 hours, I’m disinclined to say or do much more right now. Could you clarify, though? Gracias, Sir.
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