What 40-man roster crunch?

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  • #73741
    gscottar
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    I thought Webb was better than Shreve but Shreve is more likely to stick around because the FO gave up Voit to get him and Voit had a great second half in New York. Non tendering Shreve would look bad perception wise. Too many of our roster decisions are about saving face IMO.

    #73745
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    The current 40-man roster is at 39.We need to protect 4 (Thomas-Helsley-Cabrera-Urias). This involves dropping 3 from the 40-man roster.

    In the recent couple of years San Diego has poached a couple of solid prospects. With more teams going into tank mode, protecting prospects has become more important. Barring a trade, pick the 3 that will be dropped, I’ve heard Sosa-Wisdom-Fowler-Webb-Mayers-Cecil-Shreve-Bowman-Greene-Gregerson and DGonzalez. Let’s see what the FO does.

    A spot made be needed should the Cards make a rule-5 addition.

    #73746
    Bw52
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    Hoping that the FO is on the phone talking withc other teams trying to deal some of the players who need to be gone .Even if its for a middling prospect do it.Time to dump some non-producing guys.Even if its for a PTBNL.Just do FO.

    #73753
    Brian Walton
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    #73758
    CariocaCardinal
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    Mo needs to get something for these guys. They are obviously in demand as evidenced by being claimed by teams having the first shot at them.

    #73760
    Brian Walton
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    Seems great in theory, but it fails in practice.

    Notice how many guys are placed on waivers this time of year. See how few trades are made. No one wants these marginal 40-man guys enough to give any more than the waiver fee.

    Toronto used to claim guys right and left because there is no rule stopping them from putting the guys right back on waivers, hoping they clear the second time. And if they are taken, they lose almost nothing.

    #73769
    CariocaCardinal
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    And I would do the same if I was Toronto!

    If you are an upper level team and want access to the best of those being removed from 40 man rosters you should be willing to give up something.

    I dont really understand the logic of waiting until roster spots are opened via fee agency to pass guys through waivers. I would do it before the FA roster spaces open up.

    #73791
    BlackHillsCard
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    The upside on Derian Gonzalez is too much to put him on waivers. I wouldn’t mind the Cardinals waiving Shreve, Cecil (and eating the contract), and Sosa. Sosa’s been on the 40-man for so long and hasn’t even seen 1 AB and he’s been passed over when the Cards ended an IF replacement. I also wouldn’t mind them just dumping Gregerson but I apparently ruffled some feathers with that stance earlier this season.

    #73792
    Brian Walton
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    To be specific, BHC, you and I disagreed about Gregerson relatively early last season because you had decided somehow that his injuries would keep him out all of 2018 and 2019 and therefore, he should be released immediately to save the roster spot. I felt that releasing him would have been premature and I still believe that today, months later. My view is there is nothing to lose by waiting to see what he looks like in the spring and make the call on his future then, armed with better information – once he is back throwing. In the interim, they can solve any 40-man issues another way – including several possibilities you mentioned above.

    #73802
    Cardinals27
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    Gregerson, Cecil, and Fowler among others hold valuable roster spots. IF they have starters value, then that should equate to a larger value than a backup. I just hope they don’t inflate value because of salary. Either you produce or you don’t.

    #73804
    UncleDenny
    Participant

    Have to agree with Cardinals27 here. Beach Rickey had it right decades ago when he called it “addition by subtraction”.Cards need roster space now and even more going forward as Young, Edman, Woodford, Knizner and others need to be added.

    #73805
    UncleDenny
    Participant

    Branch Rickey that is of course.

    #73815
    Brian Walton
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    None of Young, Edman, Woodford, Knizner need to be added NOW. I do not believe that Gregerson and Fowler are the same as Cecil because the first two are coming off season-ending injuries. I still do not get the reason for the rush. See how they look in camp and make the call then.

    P.S. There is also an outside chance the Cards could get something for one of them as part of a trade package with multiple other players. They could trade away excess assets like Jose Martinez for prospects, for example, which would also free up space.

    Bottom line, I do not see the current 40-man situation as severe as others, I suspect.

    #73816
    CariocaCardinal
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    Brian, I know you haven’t done your final analysis of whi you think the Cardinals will protect from the rule 5 draft, but from a fan perspective, who do you think needs protection? How many open roster spots do they need to create between 40 man roster adds and FA signings?

    #73817
    Brian Walton
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    As soon as I get a final look at the minor league free agents, I will go on record with my take on all of those questions. On a general point, I think there will be fewer protected than many think and I suspect there will be more trades than free agent signings. Just my gut feeling.

    #73819
    UncleDenny
    Participant

    Everyone has right to their opinion but there’s too much non-productive dead weight on the 40 man now. Mo is reluctant to cut some because of $ owed. Fowler could eventually produce or bring something back in trade but Gregorson, Cecil, no.

    #73820
    Cardinals27
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    When is the deadline for teams to finalize their roster before the Rule 5 draft?

    #73822
    CariocaCardinal
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    Brian, not sure what you mean about the minor league FA’s. Dont we know who those all already? How will that affect the 40 man roster?

    If they dont clear roster spots it will have to be less than most people think

    #73823
    CariocaCardinal
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    C27, I believe it is Nov 20th.

    #73824
    CariocaCardinal
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    DJ, do you really think 12.2 (possibly injured) innings is enough to make an informed decision on Gregerson?

    #73828
    Cardinals27
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    I would like to see some trades, but I wonder how many other teams may want to wait on free agency, which probably will not kick into gear until after the Rule 5 takes place.

    #73831
    gscottar
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    Cardinals27

    Participant
    Gregerson, Cecil, and Fowler among others hold valuable roster spots. IF they have starters value, then that should equate to a larger value than a backup. I just hope they don’t inflate value because of salary. Either you produce or you don’t.

    Well that is obviously happening and we all know it. Look, the Cardinals FO isn’t the only FO to do this but it seems that ours is more stubborn than most. I understand that return on investment is something everyone strives for but at some point the diminishing returns leads to sunk costs. No one likes to admit mistakes but hey it happens. As I have stated before it appears that too many of our roster decisions are based on saving face.

    #73839
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    IMO our FO borders on being dysfunctional.

    #73905
    Cardinals27
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    Thomas, Cabrera and Helsley need protected for sure this year, You can make cases for Fernandez, Urias, and Schrock. Bot others not required to be may need to be added.

    Edman and Knizner (assuming that Kelly is Yadis backup or is traded) all could force a move, given that they are the top prospect at their positions. Sosa, since he is on the 40 man could be a temporary answer, but I believe Edman is a better overall player, and would make a great utility and spot regular.

    #74604
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Why in the world does MLB.com not include Lane Thomas in the top 30 Cardinals? Yet they have Conner Capel in the top 10, Schrock at #11 and Wadye Ynfante at #23! As a result, their Rule 5 prediction article does not even mention Thomas. Major fail to entirely ignore one of the most likely players to be added to the 40-man.

    I have really lost confidence in MLB’s lists, which I do not understand since Jonathan Mayo and Jim Callis are very knowledgeable analysts. I guess this (and the Sickels site article on another thread today) are good reminders how difficult it is for national entities to really know 30 different systems in depth. I readily admit I could not do it credibly, so I don’t try! 😉

    https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/news/cardinals-face-roster-decision-on-prospects/c-300825290

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