Cardinals Team Hall of Fame

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  • #180447
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

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    with Hernandez enshrined, there is no real clear cut favorite in this group.

    Going by WAR as a Cardinal, Holliday tops the group for the three position players, and Carlton is a couple of WAR higher than Morris for the pitchers. Holliday tops Lefty by about 3 WAR to lead all five candidates.

    If I we were voting for two, I would probably go with the two top WAR players and cast my lot with Holliday and Carlton. But I like Silent George as well, and the “other” Matt was a very good Cardinal pitcher.

    Then you have Edgar who anchored the infield for some good Cardinal clubs as well.

    Think this will be a close call, with personal favorites driving the voting. I agree with Brian that Holliday is the favorite, being arguably the best statistical Cardinal among the choices, and the most recent active player. Hendrick was our “Jack Clark” in the years just before the Ripper arrived; being the power guy in a lineup of singles hitting speed guys.

    Carlton is the best player of all the candidates, when you look at full career – the only Hall of Famer of the bunch. Morris and Renteria were solid Redbirds as well.

    Can’t complain about any of them. Whoever wins is deserving, and could be voted in based on popularity as much or more so than statistical value to the team while playing.

    #180502
    1982 willie
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    I liked Holliday and he had solid numbers. But it was with Holliday where I really found that Coors field could change some numbers. I’m still bothered by a few dropped or missed balls in the outfield as well.

    #182282
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

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    #186376
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

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    #186377
    1982 willie
    Participant

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    Well Matt holiday got the fan vote for the team hall of Fame. I can’t argue against it but I didn’t vote for him. If I consider all things equal, I always go for the players that have been out of game longer. But congratulations to him. Julian Javier got in from 60s on veterans vote which is fine and deserved though I don’t know a lot about him. Charles comiskey got in from the original cardinal team in 1880s, again well deserved. Glad they went back to that time.

    #186378
    1982 willie
    Participant

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    You beat me to it Brian.

    #186379
    sjeff70
    Participant

    Free

    How long does a player have to be with the Cardinals before he can be considered? Re: Carlton

    I mean why not Rollie Fingers, Will Clark, or John Smoltz.

    I guess the more players you put in it the more watered down the whole thing gets.

    #186381
    1982 willie
    Participant

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    I believe they have to be on team 3 full seasons. Those guys don’t qualify.

    #186383
    Ratsbuddy
    Participant

    Free

    Will Julian Javier’s hat from the 1967 World Series be on display? Or is Augie Donatelli still holding onto it?

    #186386
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Carlton was with the Cardinals as a very good starter for seven seasons. It wasn’t his fault he was traded to the Phillies and his success there does not diminish what he did with the Cardinals. It is the same objections some had to Keith Hernandez, who had to wait too long to get in.

    Not only did Bruce Sutter stay for just four years, his number was retired, as well. With the Cubs, he won his only Cy Young Award and had more All-Star appearances than as a Cardinal. But his StL accomplishments were considered to be good enough despite that he spent the majority of his career elsewhere.

    1982willie, we were embargoed from announcing the winners until Bally Sports did it on the pregame show. The second that happened, my article went live….

    #186389
    kscardfan
    Participant

    Free

    Javier was a question mark to me. Do you put a guy in for his longevity? His defense was pretty solid, not spectacular. Offensively average to below avg. i would have put Silent George, Carlton, and Morris ahead of him.

    #186391
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I think the veterans committee can’t pick someone on the fans ballot. Brian probably knows the exact voting rules.

    #186409
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    1982 is correct. The Modern Era players are voted upon by the fans. The Veterans Era inductees are selected by the committee. The latter players retired 40 years or more ago. One from each group goes in annually.

    #186433
    gscottar
    Participant

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    Holliday deserves to be in the Cardinal HOF. I just wish the older guys could get in first and not get skipped over. Carlton and Hendrick both deserve to get in.

    I am not old enough to remember Carlton as a Cardinal but I remember him as a Phillie. And I certainly remember Silent George as a Cardinal. He was a very good player. He and Simmons were the only power threats we had at the time.

    Ironically neither Carlton or Hendrick would speak to the media.

    #186466
    sjeff70
    Participant

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    Regarding Keith Hernandez… if Gary Templeton had better numbers (or better yet if he made the Hall of Fame) I wonder if he’d make the Cardinals hall of fame.

    #186470
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

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    I’ve been in the meetings and listened to Whitey speak about both. He fully supported Keith. Since he managed both, that was more than good enough for me to vote to put Keith on the ballot and back him. Of course, his numbers were very strong on their own.

    #186475
    blingboy
    Participant

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    I was a devoted fan in the later 60s and can attest Javier was as clutch as anyone ever was.

    Those who talk appreciatively about Templeton only know the numbers.

    #186476
    1982 willie
    Participant

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    I liked Templeton, wouldn’t vote him over some others though. If he made the hall of Fame, he would automatically be a cardinal hall of famer though not going to happen

    #186478
    sjeff70
    Participant

    Free

    I always thought what Hernandez did was more offensive than what Templeton did, whether it was behind closed doors or not. Regardless, it was offensive enough to trade him. Interesting how a cultures morals evolve over time.

    I was 13 at the old Busch stadium when I learned he had been traded. Of course this was the year after they won the World Series. I was crushed.

    #186482
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

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    Our entire world has come a long way in dealing with substance abuse in the last 40 years. So many lives have been saved as a result.

    #186493
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

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    I voted for Carlton, but am happy that Holliday got in as he certainly deserved it. I would have also voted for Matt had they still done the two votes process.

    Javier was a solid infield anchor for ten years and played on three pennant winners. Very good player – not spectacular but steady. Also a really good guy.

    It is ironic to me that Comiskey was added. He certainly deserves it as he was the first real star and leader in franchise history. But the club refers to their origins as beginning in 1892 when the National league brought the franchise in from the American Association, and Comiskey’s days with the team were in the AA days of the 1880s. Glad to see it, but it does seem odd.

    #186494
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Well they talked about comiskey on the hall of Fame special. They mentioned how 1892 is the official beginning but felt that the teams and players before deserved recognition. I totally agree.

    #186496
    blingboy
    Participant

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    The 1892 date is rather arbitrary in that the only thing that happened was a change in league affilliation, which was not anything unusual in those days. The organization had come into existence for the 1882 season. The team changed names a couple times at the end of the 1880s decade after having changed ownership, and changed league affiliation between the 1891 and 1892 seasons. Ownership, home field and roster continued from one year to the next. Comiskey as player and player-manager had a big part in the early success.

    #186503
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    The pre-1892 question is really interesting. I have written about it several times over the years.

    Not recognizing 10,000 wins ignores American Association

    Cardinals assert team history began in 1892

    It is a bigger matter than the Cardinals only. Other American Association teams, the Dodgers, Reds and Pirates, are in the same boat in that their AA years are not accepted as major league.

    The really stupid thing is that Elias and the other official stats keepers DO accept AA stats as MLB. If you go to Baseball Reference, they are all there, for example. So why are player stats considered MLB when their team results aren’t? I spoke with Elias’ historian about it and his answer was “That’s just the way it is.”

    I have also covered this matter with both DeWitts in our committee meetings. Bill III gets it for sure and I think if was up to him alone, the Cards would claim the AA years (and the titles that go with it). I suspect Comiskey’s selection is at least partially related as I said that he and Chris von der Ahe as pre-1892 individuals who should be considered.

    #186506
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Well far as accepting the titles I don’t know about that. Far as I know the world series are really only counted and that didn’t start until the early 1900s. I think you can still recognize individuals in the 1880s without really achnowledging that as your beginning but it is odd.

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