Cardinals Team Hall of Fame

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  • #129405
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Ditto!

    #132768
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    As expected, the 2020 induction ceremony will not be held. Next year, two classes will go in at once.

    #147252
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    At this point, plans for Winter Warm-Up are up in the air. Normally, during that extended weekend, the committee also finds time to sit down and evaluate candidates for the team Hall of Fame. So there are no plans there yet, either. Of course, the 2020 selections – Tom Herr, John Tudor and Bill White – have yet to be formally inducted.

    Who would you like to see on the 2021 ballot?

    #147256
    Avatargscottar
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    Keith Hernandez
    Jack Clark
    Joaquin Andujar

    #147258
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Clark is one who hasn’t received a lot of attention. He was with the Cards just three years (the minimum), but he was the team’s top hitter in two of those three years, as they lost in the World Series in 1985 and 1987. (Due to injury, he couldn’t play in the WS in 1987.)

    How do you measure short bursts of high success against longer term contributors on teams that went all the way (like a Julian Javier, for example)?

    Does it matter that Clark is considered by most a Giant? (Some use this against Hernandez, who was a Cardinal longer than a Met.)

    #147261
    Avatargscottar
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    To me Clark should be considered the same way John Tudor was. A short but very productive tenure.

    Clark’s home run in Game 6 of the 1985 NLCS is one of my all time favorite Cardinal moments.

    #147265
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    You raise a good point. There are definitely parallels between Tudor (who is already in) and Clark.

    But if key moments are a factor as important or maybe even more so than longevity, should David Freese get in one day? No bigger moments than his…

    (P.S. He doesn’t qualify yet. Three years after retirement.)

    #147269
    Avatargscottar
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    Possibly. Iconic moments have a lot of value.

    But Clark had more than one moment in his time here. He placed third in the 1987 NL MVP vote behind Andre Dawson and Ozzie Smith.

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/1987_National_League_Most_Valuable_Player_Award

    #147270
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Not to diminish third place finishes in anything, but is that Hall of Fame qualification material? I think of any Hall as being the very best.

    #147277
    Avatargscottar
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    Again I think an argument could be made that Clark was as valuable to the Cardinals of the mid 1980’s as Tudor was.

    It is also very possible that Clark’s less than stellar off the field comments and behavior of recent years hasn’t helped his image.

    #147442
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Interesting thoughts on Jack Clark. He should be considered. A similar case could be made for Orlando Cepeda. Unanimous NL MVP and the main cog in the 1967 World Championship season. Plus that ‘67 team is one of our greatest ever. On my personal list, they are the second greatest Cardinal team ever, behind the ‘42 club. Cepeda was actually with the club a month or so under three years, so I do not know if that disqualifies him since he was not quite at the full three year total.

    Yet another guy somewhat similar is Dick Groat. He is at the three-year minimum, but was second in the NL MVP voting in 1963, and was the shortstop on the World Champion 1964 club. In the three years with us he accumulated 12.4 bWAR. Even Clark had only 9.7 in his three years. Cepeda was at 11.0.

    Of the three, I would pick both Cepeda and Groat ahead of Clark. Jack is more in our memories though, having played 20 years later than Groat and Cepeda.

    Hernandez is a no-brainer and really should be in the Cardinals’ Hall by now. But that Met image and his going off track in life a bit at the time he was traded has tarnished his image. Had he had exactly the same numbers but been traded to say the Baltimore Orioles rather than the Mets, he would be in our Hall right now.

    Andujar is a good one to bring up. And I have always liked Javier – steady playing second baseman for a decade and a member of three pennant winners.

    A couple of old-timers who I think should be considered are Taylor Douthit and Johnny Mike. Not a fan vote for those guys I know.

    #147444
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Just to clarify, Cepeda, Groat and Douthit would be veteran era players considered by the committee. Clark would be on the fan ballot of modern era players. The line between the two is 40 years since retirement and the groups are reviewed separately.

    I find the fan prejudice against Hernandez disappointing. If you meant Johnny Mize, he is already in the Cards HOF.

    #155065
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    #155067
    Avatar1982 willie
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    Yep only get one vote this year. I voted for Matt morris. It was hard though. Could easily have went with renteria or lee.

    #155099
    Avatar14NyquisT
    Participant

    Matt Morris is a no-brainer. A head above the other candidates.

    Those that vote for Hernandez have such a small amount of knowing what a HOFer is all about. It doesn’t include low-lifes. And that’s not just an opinion.

    Edgar would be my #2 vote.

    #155108
    Avatargscottar
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    Of the five mentioned I would rank them:

    Hernandez
    Carlton
    Smith
    Morris
    Renteria

    Players shouldn’t be penalized because they played with other teams.

    #155122
    Avatarblingboy
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    I consider body of work as a Cardinal to be what the team HoF is about. I am happy with the current membership. Unless we want to make it the Hall of Real Good.

    #155125
    Avatargscottar
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    Hernandez’s body of work as a Cardinal is rather impressive, despite what misgivings people have for his off the field issues or the fact he finished as a Met.

    #155151
    Avatarblingboy
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    I agree it was rather impressive. But even with a pretty impressive run with NY added to it, he barely got the 5% each year to stay on the HOF ballet. He was real good with a rather impressive record. I also remember the TV camera catching him having a smoke in the dugout a few times. Times change.

    #155155
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Hernandez has more Gold Gloves than any first baseman in MLB history. The writers want power from a first baseman and that wasn’t his calling card.

    He joined the Mets Hall of Fame 25 years ago and it is woefully past time for the Cardinals to do the same. But that remains in the hands of the fans.

    #155220
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    If you use WAR as a Cardinal as a way to compare players, it is a blowout as Keith Hernandez is far and away the leader among the five at 34.4. He is almost 65% better than runner up Steve Carlton who checks in at 20.9 (this is bWAR by the way).

    Then Morris and Renteria are close to each other at 18.7 and 16.7. Hernandez was about twice as valuable as a Cardinal than either of those. Or to put it another way, he was as valuable as both Morris and Renteria combined.

    Add to Hernandez’ credentials a co-MVP and a World Championship, and there really is no other choice.

    It really comes down to “let’s get Keith enshrined as that one is obvious, then argue among who might be next between Carlton, Smith, Morris and Renteria.”

    #156049
    Avatar1982 willie
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    Strictly by the numbers, hernandez probably deserved it, but I don’t always vote by the numbers.

    #156144
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Strictly by the numbers, hernandez probably deserved it, but I don’t always vote by the numbers.

    Obviously most fans who vote on enshrinement do not put much stock in the numbers. Hernandez does not simply have the best statistics, it is not even close. One has to really put a lot of emotional value into Keith’s personal issues that lead to his being dealt, and the fact that he played on the Cardinals chief divisional rival during the 1985-1988 time frame to overcome the overwhelming statistical advantage he carries over the other candidates. Then you also have to overlook the MVP, Gold Gloves, and World Series champion accolades earned.

    It’s a lot to overcome in order to keep him outside looking in, but people have been doing just that. I hope it changes in this year’s voting.

    Here is an opinion of Russ Robinson on this year’s candidates. He ranks them from 5 to 1 and gives his reason for the placement.

    St. Louis Cardinals: Ranking the five Cardinal HOF nominees

    #156153
    Avatar1982 willie
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    Well bicyclemike, I read that and you deny the numbers but I’m still not voting for him. I also don’t agree with his order at all. Matt morris is one of my faves and outside of carpenter or maybe waino, if you asked me to pick one guy to start a game that’s played since morris’s time, morris would be my pick. Probably over waino just cause I feel morris is a little more bulldog.

    #156223
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    You have a lot of company ’82. In sort of a take off on a Yogi comment, “If the fans don’t want to vote for Hernandez, nobody is going to stop ’em.”

    My choice for the “must win” starter since Matt Morris’ time is Chris Carpenter. Morris was good as well, but Carpenter and Bob Gibson were in a class by themselves in that category.

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