Cardinals Team Hall of Fame

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  • #129274
    Avatarbccran
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    One other thing, BW, I wouldn’t put peds in the same class as cocaine. Using cocaine is a crime.

    #129275
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Thank you for clarifying, but it is challenging to have a discussion when a position that is not your own is presented with no explanation that you are speaking for others, not yourself. It is quite confusing, in fact.

    #129279
    Avatarbccran
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    Why confusing? I have been stating why Hernandez wasn’t one of the top vote getters. The 3 main reasons. You’ve assumed that it’s my opinion. It’s not, but being a long standing Cardinal fan, I can understand why some of the older Cardinal fans who remember the 80s well didn’t vote for him.

    #129280
    Euro DandyEuro Dandy
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    My post was similar to what bccran just posted. It’s not my opinion directly of the Hernandez situation. It’s my opinion (or explanation is a better word) of why I think many fans think the way they do about him. Since comparing McGwire and Hernandez was brought up, one’s sin is clearly viewed more harshly. McGwire, like many others, cheated for performance reasons. Hernandez’ sin is viewed as worse I believe because it was an assault against the birds on bat, viewed as almost treasonous. Traitors aren’t often forgiven.

    Again, that’s just my explanation, not my view. I liked Hernandez a lot during his Cardinal years. As for the Mets, I couldn’t muster enough disdain to worry about Hernandez. After Carter, Dykstra, Knight, and Strawberry, there was none left for Hernandez. He was too low on the list.

    #129291
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Well we have probably thrashed out the Hernandez deal enough. It seems most of us on here are supportive of his inclusion in the Cardinal Hall, so let’s get out and lobby for his induction next year.

    As for John Tudor, he threw more innings as a Cardinal than Bruce Sutter and Jason Isringhausen combined. Different roles obviously, but if you go by volume of work in a Cardinal uniform, then that is one measure you can look at – certainly more viable than comparing a pitcher to a position player in terms of games played.

    #129293
    Avatarbccran
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    Mike – then how about years in a Cardinal uniform?

    #129294
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Longevity alone is not a good measure. It would be like giving grades at school based on attendance.

    Example:

    Player A plays 10 seasons and averages one WAR per season. 10 WAR total. His team might have won a title or two while he was around. Good teammate, great glue guy.

    Player B plays just one season but delivers 10 WAR and his team wins the World Series. He is named league MVP.

    Which one was more impactful? Player B helped his team win 10 more games over a replacement-level player. That his club did well overall, he was a huge, huge reason why.

    Granted, this is an unrealistic extreme to make a point. There are no easy formulas, which is why there is never complete agreement. Good discussion fodder, though…

    #129295
    Avatarbccran
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    No one has said that longevity should be the sole, or even the major criteria for induction. But the longer a player has played for the Cardinals the more they have probably helped to bring home victories. So it should at least be one factor in the mix.

    What do you do with a player who was here for just a year or two and built up significant WAR compared to someone who was here for a long time and whose WAR might not be quite as high. That second player was cheered for by the fans a lot more over a longer period of time. He might be more of a Cardinal icon.

    #129300
    Avatargscottar
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    The difference with McGwire was that his drug use helped the team. So fans forgive. Sad but true.

    This is very true. A lot of people in baseball, including the fans and the owners, turned a blind eye to PED’s because the HR show was fun to watch, boosted attendance, boosted TV ratings, and of course boosted the the coffers… Money will make people view things very differently.

    I remember going to a couple of games at Busch in 1998 and 1999 and half the stadium was full just to watch batting practice.

    I read the other day that ESPN is going to do one of those documentaries about McGwire and Sosa and the summer of 1998.

    #129301
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    The fact is, short of gambling on your sport, sport Halls Of Fame generally do not put much emphasis on character traits.

    There is that word “generally”. In Hernandez’ case CARDS fans do seem to put a lot of emphasis on “character traits”, and Hernandez’ were nefarious and dark. Along with his on the field attitudes and that he hung out with the wrong guys off the field = very low grades for a player’s integrity. He made too many bad choices for a lot of Cards fans to stomach.

    Don’t knock the thinking of the fans…. blame the reasons why they feel that way.

    Its my opinion that character should be included in evaluating HOFers. I never voted for McGwire and never would. He could cry all he wants… he gets no sympathy from me. He’ll never make the real HOF.
    And, eh…. what was Bonds’ and Sosa’s WARs? They are also members of the “generally” club.

    Don’t knock the fans…. blame the REASONS that make them feel as they do. Hernandez will likely get in but as for now he isn’t. Move on.

    #129318
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    On time with the club, Brian has mentioned the criteria as a minimum of three years. Common sense is that players with longer tenure on the team would not have to be quite as good as players who barely made the cut time-wise to merit Hall recognition.

    A guy that comes to mind is Dick Groat. Likely a Pirate Hall Of Famer – 9 years, 22 WAR, MVP and World Champion. A leader-type guy similar to Ken Boyer. For the Cardinals, 3 years, 12 WAR, World Champion. Had one outstanding season of 7 WAR, then two mediocre years. It took Tommy Herr 10 years to accumulate 19 WAR; Groat got close to 2/3 of that in 1/3 the time. Seems worth consideration.

    Anyway, my point is a shorter term player needs to be outstanding in the time he played to be in the Hall. Tudor was that, and met the 3-year criteria.

    #129319
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    I loved when the Cards got Groat and loved him as a Cardinal.

    Bike… is there enough love for Maris to consider him? ’67 & ’68 two pennants and he was instrumental in both.

    #129322
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Two of Orlando Cepeda’s three years overlapped with Maris, including the monster 1967 season that included his MVP and the World Series win. For me, Cepeda would go in before Maris, but the latter has the name and the mystique (though clearly known as a Yankee), so I have no doubt that if fans could choose between the two, they would take Maris. Since Roger had just two years with StL, it is a moot point, anyway.

    P.S. I look at Dick Groat as kind a of a reverse Ken Boyer. As a baseball fan, I wished he could have spent his entire career with his first team, but both Groat and Boyer were crucial to the Cards in 1964.

    #129324
    Avatarbccran
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    If you want to look at an injustice, look at Tudor getting in over Carlton.

    Carlton was signed to a free agent contract as a 19 year old in 1963. He made it to the big club in 1965. He had 30 starts in the World Championship season of 1967. He followed that with 34 starts in the World Series season of 1968. In all, he pitched all or part of 7 seasons with the Birds and was in 190 games. In five of those seasons, he had 30 or more starts.

    Tudor had pitched for the Red Sox and Pirates and came to the Cardinals in 1985 at 31 years old. He had 36 starts for the World Series team of 1985 and 30 starts in 1986. He was on the World Series team in 1987 but only had 16 starts. He never pitched for a Cardinal World Championship team. In his five seasons here, he only had two seasons with 30 or more starts and was only in 128 games compared to Carlton’s 190.

    Just because Carlton went on to the Phillies and after great years there was inducted into the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame, that shouldn’t be held against him for the Cardinal Hall of Fame. Especially over Tudor who never had more than 9 starts in a season after he left the Cardinals. Tudor only had 5 seasons in his entire career with 30 or more starts. Two with the Cardinals. Carlton had 5 with the Cardinals alone.

    #129327
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    bccran, on that point, we agree. If I had my druthers, Carlton would already be in. But as we have discussed, most fans see things differently. So as BikeMike suggested, Carlton will probably have to wait until he moves off the fan ballot. (I hope he is with us that long. I don’t know how much it would mean to him given all his other awards and honors, but I always hate to see people recognized after they pass.)

    #129330
    Avatarbccran
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    I bet Carlton would be grateful and honored. Players probably have a fondness for who first signed then when they started their professional careers. And especially if they came out of the chute with great seasons at the major league level. I was very disappointed in Tudor’s interview. Seemed very ho hum. Like it was no big deal.

    #129346
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    I voted maybe 15 times, and had Tudor on my ballot probably 2/3 of the time, and Carlton the other times. I have voted for big Steve in past years as well.

    In some ways Carlton’s greatness hurts him as a Cardinal. He was so great as a Phillie that fans, especially those who did not see him, do not think of him as a Cardinal.

    Just the small interaction I have had with him, I get the sense Steve wishes he had never been traded. I am sure he enjoyed the success he had in Philadelphia, but if he could have scripted his career he would have stayed in St. Louis. I think Hernandez is similar, but understands his own poor decisions lead to his departure. Carlton, like Jerry Reuss, did not fit Gussie’s mold of how a player should be, namely grateful to be with the team and accepting of what ownership felt they were worth.

    #129373
    Avatarbccran
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    Wasn’t it $50,000 that separated the 2 sides that caused the Carlton trade? And I agree that both Carlton and Hernandez would have preferred a career with the Cardinals in St. Louis, where baseball is a part of everyday life.

    #129375
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    The dispute was over $10,000 or potentially less, depending on the version of the story.

    #129385
    Avatarbccran
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    What a shame. Gussie’s ego got in the way?

    #129386
    Avatar1982 willie
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    Well I voted for herr and tudor so it worked out great for me. Sure maybe Hernandez is more deserving but something about Hernandez always bugged me even before the trade to the mets. So im not gonna say im sorry, he will probably get in eventually. I wasn’t old enough to see carlton so I just view him as a phillie. But yea he probably deserves it. People vote for who they want, some are going to disagree. Heck I wouldnt vote for isringhausen on a honorable mention cardinals hall of fame but he got voted in. Good for him.

    #129389
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    bccran asked:

    What a shame. Gussie’s ego got in the way?

    I don’t know if it was ego, but clearly in the pre-free agent days, owners could do pretty much whatever they wanted. And Busch was known as one of the more staunch owners.

    #129391
    Avatarbccran
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    Although the Musial story is interesting. It was said Gussie handed him a contract with the amount blank and asked him to fill in the number. Stan wrote in $90,000
    and pushed it back across the desk to Gussie. Gussie scratched it out and put in $100,000. Said he wanted Stan to be the first six figure ball player.

    #129393
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    Switching gears, we have talked extensively about everyone except the third member of the 2020 class, Bill White. An excellent choice, and deserved member of the Cardinals Hall of Fame.

    White accumulated 28 WAR in his 8 Cardinal seasons, was an all star several times, and helped spur the club’s second half surge to the 1964 pennant and World Championship.

    Plus his off-field contributions may have been even more impactful. He was a strong and dignified leader in the civil rights movement. Bill was the guy more than any other that convinced Gussie Busch to integrate the Cardinals’ Spring Training player housing in the early ‘60s.

    He was a terrific speaker, and worked with Jack Buck on developing a broadcasting career while still playing. He had radio shows in both Philadelphia and St. Louis. When he was brought back to the Cardinals in 1969, after three years with the Phillies, the plan was for him to eventually move to the broadcast booth. He was offered the job as Buck’s partner after Harry Caray was fired, but turned it down and later teamed with Phil Rizzuto for the Yankees’ broadcasts.

    Later, Bill served as National League president. A true legend in the game who did it all with grace, and a touch of realism that made us think about who we are as a people and nation.

    One of my favorite all-time Cardinals. Congratulations to Bill White, Cardinal Hall of Famer!

    #129397
    Avatar1982 willie
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    great post bicyclemike. I never saw white play so I cant really say but you said a lot.

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