Cardinals Team Hall of Fame

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  • #127449
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Any issues they had were resolved years ago.

    Keith on Whitey: “He was a great manager, best I ever played for.”

    Whitey on Keith: “He’s the best defensive first baseman I’ve ever seen.”

    Whitey on Keith: “You know, Hernandez called me and thanked me so many times.” Herzog said, “And he wrote me a real nice letter, that he appreciated how I protected him and never said anything about the drugs, took the heat for three years over that.” Herzog has also been complimentary of Hernandez, saying that his former first baseman “is a heck of man.”

    #127452
    Avatarbccran
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    Glad they are on good terms. Has Keith every apologized for putting Whitey in such a difficult position?

    #127454
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    bccran asked:

    Has Keith every apologized for putting Whitey in such a difficult position?

    Certainly that last post is in that spirit, but I have not researched in detail exactly what words were said or written between the two – if such specifics are known.

    To me, it does not matter. People made up their minds about Hernandez long ago and few if any will change. One can only hope enough of those who do support him will vote. However, my theory is that younger fans cast more votes – ones who if they know Hernandez at all, know him as a Met. As such, more recent players like Izzy get in first. Five StL career WAR vs. 34 for Hernandez.

    The line between Modern Era (fan vote) and Veteran Era (committee vote) is 40 years retired. So the committee won’t get a chance to put him in until 2030, if the fans don’t vote him in during this coming decade. If it was 30 years, we could put him in now – and I bet Whitey would vote in favor.

    #127476
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    In my brief meeting with Keith in February, I got the sense he really wants to be in the Cardinal’s HOF. He identifies himself as a Cardinal; things just worked out to where he went to the Mets just before their upswing, and caught that wave and played on teams that got a lot of press and notoriety. Not to mention they were the Cardinals rival for a few years there in the mid-to-late ‘80s.

    Bottom lime, based on contribution and value to the club, Hernandez belongs in the Cardinals’ Hall. I hope he gets there.

    #127479
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    I really enjoyed his relatively recent book, “I’m Keith Hernandez”. If I did not know it already, after reading it, it would have been clear he considers himself a Cardinal and was candid about his mistakes made.

    #127506
    Avatarbccran
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    “Pond scum”. The team Cardinal fans at that time loved to hate. The fans’ distain for Hernandez was partly a reason for that. It’s nice that the wound is healing.

    #127751
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Ozzie was right and I was wrong. The Cardinals Hall of Fame voting does end tomorrow, May 1. I misread the website, which has an exclamation point after the date, which I saw as 11.

    “Voting ends on Friday, May 1!”

    Do not delay!

    https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/fans/hof-vote

    #128763
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    From the Cardinals. Looks like no ownership selection again…

    The St. Louis Cardinals will announce the 2020 Cardinals Hall of Fame Induction Class during a televised 30-minute Hall of Fame announcement special on FOX Sports Midwest on Friday, May 22, at 6:30 PM CT.

    Cardinals President Bill DeWitt III will be joined by Cardinals broadcaster Dan McLaughlin to announce the two modern players elected by the fans during the nine-week online balloting process that included Cardinals greats Steve Carlton, Keith Hernandez, Tom Herr, Matt Morris, Edgar Renteria, Lee Smith and John Tudor. He will also name a veteran player selected for induction by the club’s Red Ribbon committee of Cardinals baseball experts.

    #128768
    Avatarbccran
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    My guess is Herr and Hernandez.

    #128802
    Avatargscottar
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    My guess is Herr and Hernandez.

    That would be my two choices, with Tudor a close third.

    #128835
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    I put Tudor just above Tommy, but as long as Keith gets in I don’t care who the second guy is.

    #128840
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    My prediction is firm enough (in my mind) that I already prepared the graphic. (While I will get advance notice on the winners, it won’t be until the day before, so there is no inside info being hinted here.)

    #128844
    Avatarbccran
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    Tudor came from the Pirates and was with the Cards from 1985-1988, then again in 1990. 5 seasons. Tommy Herr grew up in the Cards system, came up in 1979, and was with the club through 1988. All or part of 10 seasons.

    #128853
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    And Bruce Sutter was with the team four years and he got a retired number. The way the Hall works is that everyone with at least three seasons qualifies for consideration. Fortunately we have better comparison criteria, though.

    #128856
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Anybody not named Keith Hernandez… not a favorite of mine. I’m not too crazy about his dark side. So him in the Mets’ booth and let him talk about himself.

    I’d like to see Herr and Morris…. the two guys with the most heart. Just my two cents.

    #128857
    Avatarbccran
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    Bruce Sutter choose to go into the National Baseball Hall of Fame as a Cardinal. Different case.

    #128859
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    The point relevant to this discussion is that the number of years a player was with the team is not the appropriate way to measure his contribution for Hall of Fame consideration. Sutter did not stay long, but was highly recognized anyway. That Herr played longer than Tudor (who played longer than Sutter) matters not.

    #128869
    Avatarbccran
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    I’m sorry. I go for a stalwart who played extremely well for the Cardinals over many years, and overall helped lead to the most Cardinal victories for the fans to enjoy. Personal choice and what should probably be the criteria IMHO.

    #128872
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Yes, personal choice is the criteria for voters, once we put the players on the ballot. This is Herr’s first time so we will see how he does. Tudor and Hernandez are repeaters.

    In terms of the numbers, Tudor logged 14 WAR in his five years. Herr delivered 18 in 10 seasons. That is a big reason why it took him so long to get on the ballot.

    To compare to the current second baseman, Wong already has 16 WAR in his first seven years. I wonder if fans today see Wong as a future team Hall of Famer? Maybe not until his teams win titles. (On another thread, one of our knowledgeable posters has put forward a case that the team should trade Wong.)

    But anyway, the numbers are not how most fans vote, or Hernandez would have been in years ago. He was on the team as long as Herr and his contributions were far greater. But some fans still hold a grudge against him, whereas Tommy did not do anything to hasten his trade.

    #128879
    Avatargscottar
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    Hernandez belongs in even with his controversial exit. He and Whitey have patched things up.

    Whitey has called Herr the glue to those teams of the 1980’s and I believe it. He was an incredibly solid player.

    The 1985 season by Tudor was one of the most incredible this organization has seen. He starts out 1-7 then goes on a 20-1 run to finish 21-8. That was back when pitcher w-l records were more relevant because they logged many more innings. Tudor threw 275 innings that year which we will probably never see again. He normally would have been the Cy Young winner but Gooden had an unbelievable season as well. As a side note, Joaquin Andujar was fourth in the CY Young that year. What a staff!

    The bottom line is that we can’t go wrong with two out of those three.

    #128883
    Avatarbccran
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    Bruce Sutter is well known for his leap and hug of Molina in the final game of the 1982 World Series. In 1983, he followed with at 4.23 ERA and a WHIP of 1.343. So he really only had 3 good years with the Cardinals. The year after he moved on, the Cardinals won 101 games without him and Jeff Lahti and Ken Dayley sharing the closer duties.

    I like the comment above about Herr being the glue of those teams. Herr went on to help the Cardinals into the 1985 World Series (which they should have won in 6) and the 1987 World Series that went 7. I’m sorry, but Tommy Herr had more of a long term impact on the Cardinals success than either Sutter or Tudor.

    Tudor wasn’t here when they won the WS in 1982. He played a major role in 1985. In 1987, he only pitched half the season – 16 starts.

    Herr was one of the faces of the Cardinals and a stellar core player for a decade during which they had 3 World Series teams over 6 years.

    #128888
    Avatargscottar
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    Herr’s 1985 was also incredible. He was the number three hitter and had 110 rbi’s with only 8hr’s. I still maintain that 1985 team was the best Cardinal team I have seen despite the infamous world series.

    #128890
    Avatarbccran
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    gscottar –
    Also, there are a number of things that don’t show up in “WAR”. Like advancing a runner, taking the extra base, causing an error on the throw to first because of your speed, causing a rushed throw from the outfield that goes off line because of your speed, etc. Lots of things. The bottom line is that Tommy Herr played in 1,029 games for the Cardinals compared to John Tudor’s 128 games. There really should be no comparison on who contributed the most to the Cardinals success in the long run when you compare Herr to Tudor.

    #128891
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Using games played to compare a pitcher and a hitter is faulty logic. To follow this thinking, Bob Gibson and Bob Forsch combined appeared in fewer games for the Cardinals than Herr.

    P.S. Don’t get me wrong. I voted to put Herr on the ballot, so I consider him worthy of fan consideration. But some of these comparisons are highly questionable.

    #128892
    Avatarbccran
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    BW – Do you doubt that Tommy Herr helped win a lot more games for the Cardinals than John Tudor?

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