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The bullpen guys are separate from the others, off in their own world. I agree a seasoned veteran out there can be an asset (or a big negative) depending on his attitude.
I still don’t understand bringing Libby in when he is now your fifth starter. Where was JoJo – and when was the last time he pitched??
This manager has no clue.
It was not declared that Liberatore is the fifth starter. He was said to be available out of the pen this weekend. Since the starter just went 4 2/3 last night, they needed innings. And at that point, the deficit was only 3-0. However, Liberatore didn’t have it going. By the time he got one out, they were down 7-0 and the rout was on. Given that, there was no reason to burn him up in a blowout. Liberatore only threw 13 pitches (but most of them were hit).
I don’t know, but perhaps last night was considered his between-starts work.
After tonight, all starters are listed as TBD.
I wonder if Romero has a physical issue we are not aware of. I guess that since he hasn’t pitched in a week, since May 4. He has been used heavily this season.
This whole team is a broken down disaster. 40 games into the season and the pitching staff is jacked up and the regulars couldn’t hit water if they fell out a boat in the middle of Kentucky Lake.
But who couldn’t see this coming with the signing of the senior citizens crew of starters, who are lucky to make it five innings each start. This team and the fan base was let down by an arrogant front office. This thing only gets worse from here. It was all easy to see coming. You didn’t have to be Nostradamus to see it.
I’m searching for the right word to describe the entire organization right now and ‘lost’ is the best one I can come up with.
If the team is to win 85 games to finish at 85-77 they need to go 70-54 .565 the rest of the way.
It’s gettin’ late early (again).
A nice 10 game winning streak would knock the season back into shape but where would that come from?
I have never been a fan of Liberatore and have often pointed out that he has not established any dominance at any level since A ball. He flashes something good often enough to keep the pipe dreamers hooked. Pipe dreamers including the FO, which is part of the problem. They just love beating their dead horses. I am sure we have not seen the last of him in the rotation. Thompson too probably.
There are some other instances of pipe dreaming going on. One of them has Contreras doing a lot of 1B next year with Herrera behind the plate. It must be remembered that BDW didn’t spend $85 Million for no reason. He did it because Herrera cannot control the running game and therefore cannot be an everyday catcher. However much we want to dream up some scenario, that remains a fact. It is also already obvious that Pages cannot be an everyday catcher either. So that means Contreras will continue to be.
I wonder how his healed receiving arm will be able to stand up to the pounding of catching 90+ mph pitches?
Rushing him back would be the wrong thing to do. The last estimate I saw was 10 weeks.
I think the Cardinals should be really careful with Contreras no matter where they are in the standings but especially if they continue to be a sub .500 team.
Liberatore is another one of those pieces that, 3-4 years ago, the Redbirds thought was going to be a really good big league player for them. Just another piece that never worked out. Along with all the rest of them.
Flaherty
Hudson
Reyes
Hicks
LiberatoreOscar Taveras (shame)
Carlson
Nootbaar
Walker
O’Neill (one good year then always hurt)Coupled with two worthless veteran mega- stars, well, now we know why we are where we are.
r/Esteemed Rat
I would have named Libby the fifth starter when Matz went down and give him a good shot at regular rotation work. Maybe he won’t do much, but he has never been given a shot. He will start now and then, then be used out of the bullpen. Again, another example of poor management.
JoJo was the right guy to bring in last night, but maybe something is going on that management has not revealed. And if so, that is yet another black eye on them as you are playing with a short deck.
Just a train wreck right now. A rudderless ship in so many ways.
I doubt if Marmol has the authority to deterimine what role Libby has with the team. That comes from above. He just does what he is told.
he has never been given a shot.
Excuse me? Last year from late May until mid August Liberatore took a turn in the rotation for ten starts. He went 2-5 and the team went 3-7. His ERA was 5.88. OPS+ against was 127 over 226 PAs. The year before, 2022, in between being hurt he made six straight starts from mid May to early July. His ERA was 5.46, wHIP 1.787. He has been given a shot. More than once. He stunk. Can we quit with this guy finally. Maybe he can do OK in relief if they just leave him in the pen and quit jerking his chain.
Liberatore just keeps getting chances because the FO is trying to justify trading Arozarena for him! It ain’t gonna work! He is not ever gonna be a real player in MLB and most that have watched have already figured that out! Jordan Hicks on the other hand, has been developed by the Giants and has become a quality starter! Developing a pitcher, what a novel idea!
We need a real pitching coach to help develop these young pitchers we have coming up. Liberatore has the components, but I don’t think our coaching staff knows how to develop pitchers in the modern game. If Liberatore leaves the team and succeeds somewhere else, you same posters who are saying he isn’t good will be blaming the FO for getting rid of him in a few years. You mention Hicks and he is a perfect example of this. Everyone here wanted him gone, and now that a proper team helps him develop, you blame the FO for getting rid of him.
I blame the front office for not developing Hicks! For years he threw for us and all we wanted was to see how hard he could throw! Several times on here I complained about his lack of development! I coached against Hicks in HS and he was the same pitcher in HS as he was the day we traded him to Toronto! Now he has been developed into a quality starter! Liberatore has MUCH less potential than Hicks! He can be a 4 or 5 on a bottom feeder, kinda like Austin Gomber, but not much else!
We need a real pitching coach to help develop these young pitchers we have coming up. Liberatore has the components, but I don’t think our coaching staff knows how to develop pitchers in the modern game.
I am not much of a Dusty Blake fan, but I do not necessarily think that the ML coaching staff is the problem as far as the pitching staff. Liberatore has underperformed from the beginning in the Cardinals organization. When he arrived he was magically beamed up to AAA from A ball and failed to ever dominate at that level. That was before any ML coach had anything to do with it. When Liberatore did come up to ML, Mike Maddux was the pitching coach, and Liberatore looked exactly the same under him as he does now under Blake. I think the problem is in the way pitchers are developed throughout the system, and the pitching and game prep practice and philosophy. It is just a bad system that does not work. I think that is why Maddux left. And the same for hitting, which is why Albert left. And probably why Shildt got fired. The coaches themselves are not the problem and hanging out coaching personnel is not going to solve the problem.
It isn’t the FO’s job to develop pitchers. But it is their job to hire coaches, trainers, and staff that do coach, develop, and decide game plans for the players. I rarely think a complete overhaul is needed for an org, but this FO and staff aren’t keeping up with modern baseball. Mo, Girsch, Marmol, Turner Ward, and Dusty Blake all need to go. Some guys outside the org need to be hired to bring in fresh ideas.
And I agree completely with what Steve said. The system is all about FB velocity, and development seems to consist of “adding a couple ticks”.
Thanks Bling, I’ll leave everyone with a question! When was the last time our minor league organization developed a top of the line starter 1-3 that actually pitched more than a solid year for us? I don’t know what the answer is but it does not jump out at me!
Good question Steve. Maybe Lance Lynn. He was acquired and developed during the Luhnow-Vuch era. Had several seasons where he was certainly a solid 3 or better.
Good call on Lynn! Mo took over in 2007 I Believe! How many top line pitchers have we drafted, then developed into a solid 1 2 or 3 in his 17 plus years as GM? I can think of 3!
Jaime Garcia
Carlos Martinez
Lance Lynn
So I’m MO’s tenure the best pitcher we have drafted is? Jaime Garcia maybe! Case closed! We have traded away much better but that is a problem also!
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