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The $64,000 question is this – How long is long enough?
On that point, there will be no agreement. Some feel it has already been too long. Others will hang onto hopes until he returns to past effectiveness, his contract is done or he is traded.
It is hard not to remember Matheny’s unending support of Allen Craig. I am not suggesting Carpenter will end the same way, because I have no idea, but with Craig, it took someone above the manager to make the decision. The rest of this season will be up to Shildt.
My summary: Shildt has “got the back” of his veterans, in this case, Carpenter.
Add to that:
1 – There’s not an Edman matchup that Shildt doesn’t like.
2 – The Aroz/Thomas matchups that Shildt likes are far and few between.It really surprises me to see matchups cited for rookies. These hitters have likely never faced these pitchers in their lives, so they are .000 against them all, while Carpenter has faced them all – in better times. General handedness is not a factor, either. Those minor league splits are being ignored. (And yes, I know Edman is a switch-hitter. Check the actual stats and get back to me.)
Sometimes managers have to make hard decisions. Eventually you have to do what is best for the team. I would hate to lose the chance to win the division because of feelings for an aging player who is underperforming.
C27, I’ve thought a lot about that. When (if ever) do his key teammates (team leaders) start losing faith in Carpenter (and Shildt causes more harm that good with his veterans by sticking with Carpenter)?
It really surprises me to see matchups cited for rookies.
Bingo. How does he know for sure what matchups are favorable at this point? Curiosity would get to me, i.e., I would just have to find out a little more how my young player assets could handle MLB competition and pressure. It’s not like the Cards would suffer a huge drop off with a little more lineup juggling among the youngsters. You might just discover there’s more than one spark you like to give flexibility down the stretch.
On the “how long” question… (I have not verified these numbers.)
Aaron is pretty reliable. From August 19, 2018 through August 18, 2019:
Matt Carpenter is hitting .215/.325/.363 in 131 Games or 466 at bats.
Mo on Carpenter with Danny Mac today.
“…He claims he is getting closer so hopefully we can be patient with him… At this point, we’ll keep giving him a chance, but at the end, we’ll probably have to go with the guys who are most producing…”
Not asked – “When is ‘the end’?”
(He also covers Randy, Bader, Edman, Carlson and more.)
https://www.scoopswithdannymac.com/mondays-with-mo-august-19-2019/
It really feels that a lot of the writers, etc. fail with good followup questions. “When is the end?” is a really good followup that should have been asked.
Words from the fans…. place Fowler ’18 with Carpenter ’19…. deja vu.
Those wondering if playing Carpenter will cost us a chance at October ball… oh, like Fowler did last season?
ps…. Fowler never got going last year and rarely helped the team at all.
Obviously, they are going to be loyal to Carpenter. I respect that.
You recite the company line in every post. I am curious, is this out of conviction or just a desire to be the devil’s advocate so you can enjoy the responses from the other members of the board?
I think I would start Edman at 3B most every game and allow Carp to be a bat off the bench. Carp can try to regroup in spring training next year. As Joe Maddon said the other the other day “this is big boy baseball time” and he doesn’t have the luxury of making sure no one gets their feelings hurt. It is time to win games. I think Shildt manages with a sense of urgency when it comes to the bullpen so he needs to do it with Carp also.
By the way, Edman has a cannon of an arm at 3B. He looks really good there. Much better than RF.
Ny, you just love rehashing Fowler last season, don’t you?
Fowler did not play the entire final two months of the 2018 season.
The time is coming close for Carpenter to sit, IMO. I don’t like to say it because I think the team cannot win in October without a healthy and functioning Carp. If he’s still “close” but not performing next week I give him a start or two a week against RHP he’s hit well before and pinch hit late. Edman takes most of the time at 3B.
I still think he’s a rebound candidate for 2020. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he’s a >120 wRC+ hitter again next year.
BW… I started to reply to your last comment but what’s the use. I rehash what happened in ’18 you deny it. 🙂
Ny, we just see things differently. You commented and I responded, but I agree, let’s move on to discuss Carpenter.
As for Matt Carpenter I simply cannot believe that it is Shildt’s decision alone on how to handle Carp. The contract itself ($$$) tells me that higher powers in the FO are consulted before any definitive benching action will be taken. As for where to bat him and when to remove him from the game I do believe that is Shildt’s decision.
Noticed that Carp now has a protection pad over the top of his right foot — and I think he actually hit it once last night. Jimmy Ballgame seems to be on track as to how Carp manages to hit his feet and shins so often. It is determined by his swing.
I will give him credit for some good defense in his last few games and I am really amazed that those loopy throws to 1B could beat out anybody but they seem to do that. But Edman’s cannon arm is a definite winner at 3B.
What dislike I may have for Carp probably evolves from the damage (in my eyes) he has caused to other players advancement by somewhat hogging a position at which he is not the best defender (1b & 3B) We lost Adams and Voit and a few minor leaguers who had no hope because of it. Yes Carp has/had his hot streaks but any fan could tell they were the exception and not something we could depend on every day for the whole season. It was the extension and all those extra bucks that really turned me on him but I cheer every hit he gets and curse every strikeout where he looks dumb because, in my mind, he has always been someone who milks for walks and watches strikes. Then he started his aggressive hitting campaign (his own description) with the launch angle BS. Being an old missile man I know something about launch angles and ballistic trajectories and folks he is a long way from mastering that. He is in a league with that North Korean nut on launch angles – all he ever hits is the sea……LOL
He has attempted and even been successful at some bunts but never pursues it to try and defeat the shift and he doesn’t seem to even be interested in defeating the shift anymore. He may as well chalk up this season as a lost one unless, by some miracle, he suddenly catches fire. That remains to be seen. I only hope that if he continues to play he contributes to the teams success and does not subtract from it.
BHC wrote:
<Watching him tonight is brutal.>Watching him night or day is getting to be brutal. I think both the fans and Carp have lost confidence in him. A hit here, walk there and even a home run now and then would help but dependability is the problem. I hate to say it about any Cardinal but every time he comes to bat I groan. I hate to say that about any Cardinal but management needs to take a different tact on his use.
Carpenter had one outstanding year, that being 2013. Its the only time he hit over .300. His lifetime average, if you take away that year, is .260. The last three years he has NOT even hit .260. And there’s been a gradual trend downward since that stellar 2013 season. I suspected his new contract was a mistake for St. Louis.
Put me in the camp that at this point in time he needs to sit or play sparingly. No, make that he simply needs to sit – period. Its obvious he is never going to figure things out here in 2019.
What to do with him is the main question. Its a tough situation. The Fowler situation took care of itself last year when he got hurt. Not sure what is going to resolve the Carpenter situation except, perhaps, Carpenter himself.
r/Esteemed Rat
Rutsbaddy, if batting average is the only thing that determines what is an outstanding year, then you would be disappointed by quite a few great hall-of-famers and other great players.
Hank Aaron – 1/3 of his seasons would not be outstanding
Barry Bonds – 50% of his seasons
Babe Ruth – 1/4 of his seasons
Ken Griffey Jr. – 2/3 of his seasons
Mike Trout – 4 of his 9 seasons
Jim Thome – 19 of his 22 seasons
Chipper Jones – 50% of his seasons
Cal Ripken Jr. -16 of his 21 seasonsThere is more to determine an outstanding year than just batting average. I would say Carpenter has had 4 outstanding years and a couple more very good years.
I would add that I think it is time to forget Carpenter for the rest of this year. He needs to sit unless he changes that swing.
Carpenter got his extension for what he has done in the past instead of what he is going to do in the future, which is not what good analytical front offices are supposed to do.
The best thing to do would be make him a bench bat the rest of the season then see if he can regroup next spring. We have a chance to win the freaking division. Loyalty to the fans should be more important than loyalty to the veteran players. Carp is getting paid either way.
I don’t think Shildt will stick with Carp if his woes continue. He has already rested him some. Last year he was easing Fowler out of the lineup when he broke his foot. Shildt seems like a guy who will give someone a chance but there is a breaking point somewhere. Carp looked pretty dismal last night when he fanned with the tying runs in scoring position. I’m not sure who I would have gone to for a pinch hitter though. Munoz and Thomas both already used. Leaving Wieters and Edman. I guess I would have gone with Edman. Even a squeeze bunt would have helped.
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