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trade Fowler and Pham.That would rid the Cards of Fowlers rotten contracty and deal Pham while his value is highest.
… Valid IMO… Just depends on what you want to do.
To me, pham in center could be awesome … But Fowler needs to go.
However if pham got dealt I would understand.
From Marlins beat writer Joe Frisaro. Price of poker is high.
The #STLCardinals are viewed as the frontrunner for #Marlins Marcell Ozuna. Possibilities that could be in package are two of these three pitching prospects – Jack Flaherty, Dakota Hudson or Sandy Alcantara, plus either OF Stephen Piscotty or Randal Grichuk.
Way way way over pay that one would one stupid trade for cards. Ozuna has only once posted a war over 3 in his 5 years no thanks
Jon Heyman 14m
While cards are in on Marcell Ozuna they have company. The dreaded mystery team has entered the picture.
Get out and get out now. Just the players listed above in any combination would be an overpay.
Piscotty and Flaherty would be palatable to me…but adding Hudson or Alcantara would be a big overpay.
You have to overpay to get guys that good.
Would I do it? Depends on what options are out there. Hudson and flaherty don’t make me blink. Alcantara does because I think he will be our closer very soon. I think Flaherty might have peaked… Hudson’s k rate scares me. Just my opinion I was lower on them than some — pretty much didnt vote for hudson in the prospect voting.
But if we keep signing arms I dont know if that even matters. Our farm has enough arms that bullpen will be stocked in some way shape or form.
When you go about ten or twelve deep in arms that should make it and do well in aaa and aa you can afford a couple overpays.
I wonder why this supposed deal is taking so long to agree with.Could be Miami is trying to play the Cards offer against the ” mystery team” to jack up their asking price.For a possible 2 year player i hope MO does not agree to a massive overpay.
Last year at this time the Cardinal faithful were clamoring for a CF upgrade. It was something like… \\\\we can’t compete with the Cubs unless we get a proven CFer////. Well we got that CF in the person of Dexter Fowler didn’t we?
Now Fowler is on the junk heap and getting rid of him will cost a bundle. Another dumb-ass move by Mozeliak. He should realize that the time to go with the younger OF prospects is right now. The OF prospect window will close by ’19. Use the guys that went through the system and are MLB-ready and would be under team control into the future.
For those who don’t especially care to go with prospects, The Memphis OF candidates in ’18 (Bader-JAGarcia-Arozarena-O’Neill-Mercado-Sierra) might just be better than the Cardinal OF (Fowler-Pham-Grichuk-Piscotty). There’s a chance that there is a ROY candidate among that Redbird group, at least a better chance for success than Fowler will give us.
Most people where saying it was a dumb move when we WAY over paid for FOwler last year that hasn’t changed at all
Noonan>>>>> “I think Flaherty might have peaked”…
Do you have any particular reasons for saying this? I’d love to hear an explanation.
Fowler is just fine. We had to add an extra year to get him to sign. Who cares about 2021 anyway? He was good last year and will be even better with Pham in CF and Fowler in LF.
Ozuna came up as a RF. He will be fine there and likely excellent defensively.
I always found this article about him fascinating:
https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/a-marcell-ozuna-warning-disguised-as-a-fun-fact/
Flaherty is a deal-breaker for me. He is too valuable to us. He’s consistent and will provide the innings we need. He threw 170 innings last year! Hudson, Alcantara, Hicks, Grichuk, etc. are fine by me.
I laugh every time someone criticizes Fowler’s performance last year. In the NL, only one CF with 400 abs had a higher OPS than Fowler. Only 2 LFs with a higher OPS were Pham and Ozuna. Was his defense bad in CF? Yes. But most certainly think he would be adequate in LF where he would still be one of tbe best hitters in the league at his position.
You can make a solid argument that Fowler was overpaid or we gave too many years but the idea that Fowler is bad or on the “junk heap” doesn’t hold water.
Onyxgem
Way way way over pay that one would one stupid trade for cards. Ozuna has only once posted a war over 3 in his 5 years no thanks
Ozuna was breaking out in 2016 before he got injured (wrist too) and derailed his season. He was also pushed up by Miami WAY WAY too early in his career. He came up basically from A ball in 2013 (at 22 years old). That would be similar to holding Sierra accountable for his stats had he been thrust into the lineup every day this past season.
Yeah, no way I give up two top pitching prospects for Ozuna. I would like to have him, but do not feel that he is a lock to be a strong enough upgrade over guys we have to give up what looks to be premium pitching in a couple of years.
I can live with their choice of Grichuk or Piscotty (preferably Grichuk as Piscotty is a guy I can see being much better next year), and a pitching prospect.
But man, be careful. I can see this being a trap, similar to the deal where we gave up Van Slyke, Lavalliere, and Dunne for Tony Pena. Van Slyke blossomed, and Lavalliere turned out better than Pena.
The Cardinals have not seen some of their home grown offensive players develop like they hoped, and thus are conditioned to think this will keep happening. That is not a certainty, so don’t overpay on a guy that had a career year.
You dont get much higher in value than going from low minors to mlb in a year with that kind of stats.
Flahertys control is awesome. His stuff isnt. It is above average but not reyeslike.
He is cheap. Even if he maxed out as a #2 you dont get a higher value than right now.
Shooting stars generally fall off (sometimes hard) the next year. It is relatively rare for them to keep pushing forward.
I think his performance in the bigs was a medium term warning. At best, he got there too quick IMO.
His value has peaked for a while from what I can see and saw in his pitching.
Thus, if they trade him at peak value they probably know what they are doing.
Ozuna also was solid in every month this year, showcasing excellent consistency. Hitting 37 HRs is no joke. Contrast that with Gyorko, who hit 30 HRs in 2016, but was completely different from the first half to the second, then did the inverse in 2017.
…as for fowler.
He is a decent player. That’s it. And his defense is so bad even with those stats he couldnt get his WAR over 2.
Bad player? No. Dump as fast as possible? Yes. You can get the same production from bader with slightly less hitting. Or probably sierra with no hitting.
His perceptional value is significantly higher than his actual value especially to us when we have about six guys who can do the same thing.
And his value has nowhere to go but down. WAY down.
There is nothing positive to be gained by keeping him. So you dump him posthaste.
Junior would like the way you think. Do nothing, spend no money and stick with the guys you have.
Just to be clear, I think we need to strongly pursue and assess potential deals aimed at improving the offense. At the same time, do not panic and make a deal just for the sake of making it.
I am not sure why the club has not shown interest in JD Martinez. He is a guy who might be better than anyone available. But then we would be stuck with an even bigger logjam in the outfield than we already have. But that is a “problem” you can live with when you land a guy that can make a difference like Martinez.
.. To give you an idea of how bad of a contact fowler actually is :
Fowler WAR : 1.6 in baseball reference
2.7 fanhraphsGrichuk: 1.0 in bout 80 less pas in baseball reference
1.4 on fangraphsI will add grichuk played the harder positions (centerfield is an easier comp vs other players)
In other words, he was roughly just as good as grichuk. Better by a little bit. But not much.
Last I checked, people gave up on grichuk for very good reason
I won’t even go into the comparison with ozuna because that’s a joke.
Fowler the albatross needs to go. Period.
bicyclemike
Yeah, no way I give up two top pitching prospects for Ozuna. I would like to have him, but do not feel that he is a lock to be a strong enough upgrade over guys we have to give up what looks to be premium pitching in a couple of years.
We have a full starting rotation that will at least be middle-of-the-pack, then we have Reyes, Flaherty, Hudson, and Alcantara (along with Weaver as the 5 guy) also Gant…
Then we have Hicks, Gomber, Gallen, Helsley, and Woodford.
There isn’t room for everyone.
Ozuna hit 37 homers in florida.
Think about that again. Not colorado. Florida.
He’s legit. Will have to adjust to a lineup without stanton and that will hurt but still.
Age 26 career year is generally breakout year.
Age 30 career year is generally fools gold.
Here’s a hint : one is fowler one is ozuna.
Ozuna has one good year and all of a sudden he is a superstar? I don’t get it.
People on this board used to always talk about sample size. Not so much anymore.
Why do you think most teams are asking the Marlins about Yelich instead of Ozuna? It isn’t just about money. There are several teams that could easily afford either player but they know which one projects to have the brighter future.
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