Jack Flaherty Extension

Home The Cardinal Nation Forums Open Forum Jack Flaherty Extension

Viewing 25 posts - 126 through 150 (of 198 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #154325
    Avatarforsch31
    Participant

    Free

    When comparing the salaries of baseball players with the salaries of teachers, judges, ministers, medical workers, etc., it seems that baseball players are overpaid. When comparing their salaries to the amount of revenue those players bring to the owners, it doesn’t seem quite so bad. The players bring a lot of revenue to the team owners so they are trying to get as much of a share as they can.

    To get players of the quality of major leaguers, it is not easy. It is much easier to get teachers, judges, ministers, medical workers, etc. Besides, most of those workers have a much smaller pot of money per person to get paid from.

    #154326
    UConn CardUConn Card
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Cranny,
    I addressed that line of thinking above but I’ll go further here.

    It’s a fallacious comparison. JF isn’t comparing his compensation to those other occupations you listed there. Why should he? They don’t apply to him. They aren’t the same thing.

    JF took part in the system as it’s currently constructed – arbitration. He felt the offered salary wasn’t an accurate reflection of his performance value. Per the arbitrator, he was right.

    How many of you approach salary negotiations with your employer with the mindset of what other occupations are paid?

    #154327
    Avatargscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I think Flaherty has a problem with the overall MLB compensation system, not a problem with the Cardinals specifically, so I don’t see how going to the “left coast” or any other team is going to solve that problem. Those “left coast” teams are ran by billionaires just like the Cardinals are.

    Personally, I don’t much like it when players act disgruntled publicly. I think they should address their concerns privately behind closed doors, but cry me a river if you think we should feel sorry for the poor picked on owners. They bring a lot of their problems on themselves.

    #154329
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Free

    Bingo, gscottar. If a player is unhappy, keep it to himself and work within the system to change it. JF’s whining reminds me of the SI Pham article.

    And I don’t think a comparison of compensation is out of line with other industries. Why doesn’t JF go tell members of the Capitol Hill police how he thinks $3,000,000 a year for a 25 year old is “unfair”.

    At the same time you work within the system to change the compensation structure, you can also be grateful for making as much as you make. I don’t see that gratitude. Just entitlement.

    #154330
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    blingboy said:

    FA is three seasons away, but each time Flaherty takes the mound could potentially zero out his value if a serious injury happens. Mo has to play it right, play the odds. He doesn’t want to be like the guy trying to make the last dollar to be made in a bull market who ends up holding the bag.

    I am curious what your generic comment means in terms of action. Do you think:

    Flaherty should be traded now?
    Flaherty should be traded later?
    Flaherty should be kept at least until free agency?

    Those are the only choices I can see.

    #154331
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    So, Jack spoke out and looked poorly in doing it. So what? Should he be traded in retaliation? That would be incredibly short-sighted by the team.

    #154332
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Free

    UConn – I respect your points and understand where you’re coming from. Again, it’s probably more the lack of gratitude and graciousness that bothers me. Remember what happened with McGwire and the option? That was the other end of the spectrum.

    #154333
    UConn CardUConn Card
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Cranny,
    What the Capitol Hill Police (or any other occupation) is paid has ZERO to do with the compensation structure within HIS occupation. ZERO.

    gscott- I suspect you are correct re JF’s concerns about MLB compensation. I also prefer matters to be addressed privately when possible. But sometimes that’s not possible. We aren’t privy to internal discussions/negotiations so we don’t know what we don’t know.

    And any owner who feels their team isn’t sufficiently profitable is free to sell said team.

    #154335
    AvatarTexasCard
    Participant

    Free

    So at the end of their age 23 season who was worth more Jack Flaherty or Michael Wacha? How about at the end of their age 24 season? One was already an All-Star and 17 game winner with playoff success. The other not so much. For someone like myself that thinks the Cardinals aren’t very well operated in recent years, I believe in this instance they are taking the short end of the stick. I don’t really care about twitter or political causes the player has. I do care about on field production and JF, while very talented, has yet to really be great over a full season. I also don’t like where pitching salaries are headed after the first 40 million salary this offseason in the middle of a pandemic.

    I’d trade him, for baseball purposes, sooner rather than later because there is little doubt his arm talent will bring back a king’s ransom in prospects. This is nothing like Steve Carlton in my book. Carlton played parts of seven seasons with the Cardinals and more than earned his way when compared with JF.

    While it is probably not going to happen right now, next offseason I’d consider strongly moving on from him because we all know the Cardinals are not going to pay him crazy money in a few seasons. Ride it out for now and reassess and consider it next offseason, but at some point they can’t play this out and let him walk for a pick. This isn’t the old days of draft compensation and who knows what the next CBA will look like. You have to strongly consider trading him for baseball purposes IMHO.

    #154338
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    The best course of action with Jack Flaherty’s club control is exactly what the STL front office is doing. One year at a time, for below market value salaries, during the arb process.

    If Jack declines a Q-ffer as a FA-to-be, STL receives compensation. While it’s easy to poo-poo compensation picks, lets not forget Flaherty was draft pick compensation himself (#34), for the Beltran Q-offer.

    Hudson was comp pick #34 for Heyward. Carlson was comp pick #33 for Lackey. Bauer will net Cincy pick #30….

    If Jack becomes injured and loses a season, his arb salary freezes, just like Syndergaards did. This is the lowest risk, highest reward scenario.

    High risk is trading Jacks surplus value now for a watered down package of three or four players. Hard pass on that, I’d rather watch Flaherty make ~ 100 GS as a Cardinal.

    #154339
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    TC, let’s look at 2022 through another lens. Here is your projected rotation without Flaherty:

    Mikolas
    Hudson (if healthy)
    other question marks

    Does that look like a championship rotation?

    Likely gone:
    Wainwright retired
    Kim free agent
    Martinez option declined

    I agree they should wait until after the season to assess, but right now, if the team wants to contend in 2022 and 2023, they keep Jack.

    #154340
    Avatarblingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    BW, once the season is underway, and assuming Flaherty is his 2019 self, his value will never be higher with 2+ years until FA. But his value will never be higher to the Cardinals as well as to anyone else. I am happy to gamble with someone else’s money and I hope Mo is too. There is also the Arenado angle to consider. His position as to opting out depends on his perception of the team’s commitment to winning. So I think Mo should roll the dice and hope for the best this year. Go for a flag. If we crater, then take a look at offers before the deadline. Same next year. Then put out the for sale sign, assuming the gamble paid off and there is still value.

    #154341
    stlcard25stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    You have to strongly consider trading him for baseball purposes IMHO.

    How are the Cards gonna sell that to Arenado, Goldy or anyone else if you trade away your ace pitcher for “prospects” while you are attempting to win a World Series? Slam that window shut and hope for 2025? Remember that the Cubs, the only natural long term rival in the division, are rebuilding themselves and probably won’t be back in contention til 2024 at the earliest. The Cards aren’t the Pirates where you panic and trade away a guy just to get the best offer back.

    I think you have to keep Flaherty and let the chips fall where they may after 2023. They may well lose him (although we have all assumed players would leave some situation to move to a “coast” or a “big spender” before and been surprised). The Cards are set up very well in the coming years with their salary structure. If they can’t throw money at Flaherty, they will throw the money elsewhere.

    #154342
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Thanks for clarifying, bling. Wait and see causes no harm. Great point on Arenado’s opt out.

    #154343
    Avatarblingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    btw, what do you mean by “other question marks”? Young/prospect level players can be expected to play to expectation, so we should be set.

    #154344
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    bb, that is someone else’s position, not mine. The Cards have some good young arms, but none of them will likely be ready to step into the 2022 rotation day one to replace Jack in the trade scenario. That could be a very different story by the time he reaches free agency, though.

    #154345
    AvatarLACardFan
    Participant

    Free

    If Jack declines a Q-ffer as a FA-to-be, STL receives compensation. While it’s easy to poo-poo compensation picks, lets not forget Flaherty was draft pick compensation himself (#34), for the Beltran Q-offer.

    Hudson was comp pick #34 for Heyward. Carlson was comp pick #33 for Lackey. Bauer will net Cincy pick #30…

    Under the current competitive balance pick rules, the highest a compensation pick can be for the Cardinals is after round 2.

    #154346
    AvatarTexasCard
    Participant

    Free

    So BW this site prides itself on watching the Cardinals prospects. they have the following high end pitching prospects chomping on the bit for their shot plus whatever they would get back in a hypothetical JF trade.

    Matthew Liberatore, LHP
    Zach Thompson, LHP
    Junior Fernandez, RHP
    Johan Oviedo, RHP
    Edwin Nunez, RHP
    Ian Bedell, RHP

    Let’s not act like there aren’t high ceiling internal options to fill the void of the expected departures which will happen with JF on or off the roster. Plus with a ton of dead money coming off the books and post covid they can also delve into the FA market as well looking for pitching (even though the very top end most likely will be out of reach). While JF may be our “ace”, it’s amazing how that definition has changed to where a 23-22 3.37 pitcher can carry that tag. Again very talented young man but not irreplaceable.

    Those fearing they won’t put a competitive team on the field with Nolan Arenado are being a little paranoid. They will do it no doubt, but thinking JF is somehow the lynchpin of it all is a bit over the top. Again I said I strongly consider it if the right offer can be found. I also said you ride out this year and reassess the options. I might feel differently come November 2021.

    #154347
    AvatarTexasCard
    Participant

    Free

    Under the current competitive balance pick rules, the highest a compensation pick can be for the Cardinals is after round 2.

    Exactly, this isn’t like it was a few short seasons ago.

    #154348
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Thanks LACardFan, I didn’t realize that on comp picks. I’ll still look forward to 100-ish GS over the next 3 seasons, and if he walks, he has the right.

    #154351
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    TC, how many of those pitching prospects do you project to be able and ready to step into the rotation in April, 2022, let alone take the place of the ace?

    My point is that a number of those prospects should be ready later on to join the rotation if he leaves as a free agent.

    We cannot ignore the timing needed for them to complete their development as well as the wait for MLB opportunities to arise.

    I agree the best idea is to revisit this in the off-season. But given the experienced pitchers ahead of them on the 2021 team, most of these prospects will likely still be unproven at the MLB level heading into 2022.

    On whether or not Flaherty is the “lynchpin”, he is recognized as the team’s ace. A team trading a such a player who has multiple years of cost control is not a move a contending team makes because of a later fear of free agency. It just isn’t.

    #154352
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    On compensation picks, there is no reason to project it, as we have no idea what the rules will be under the next CBA. Whatever they turn out to be, if they even still exist, will apply after the 2023 season, when Flaherty is scheduled to reach free agency (again under the current rules).

    We don’t know any of that yet…

    I guess one argument in favor of trading him would be if you believe FA could he shortened to five years or that salaries for arb-qualifying players could go up dramatically in the new agreement or if comp picks are abolished completely. Still, I would not trade him based on trying to guess new rules that haven’t yet been created.

    #154354
    Avatar14NyquisT
    Participant

    Why is the assumption that they would trade him for prospects? Couldn’t a trade to a team for a premier P now be an option? A team looking for for a younger #1 that will fit into their plans of looking at ’22-’23 as a turnaround season. A team that has a #1 stater now that doesn’t fit that description. Just thinking.

    #154360
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Ny, nothing is impossible, but one must consider the likelihood. Do you have a recent example of such a trade of two number 1s to illustrate? I can’t think of one off the top of my head.

    #154361
    Avatarblingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    We usually have an impressively long lineup of arms going into ST and there is talk about how we could do a 6 man rotation, etc. Then attrition sets in. A lot of times Mo has to bring in some help before opening day. A lot of times by the break he is looking to bring in somebody to answer the bell every 5 days. But this is the time of year for irrational optimism with reality just over the hill and out of sight.

Viewing 25 posts - 126 through 150 (of 198 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

First-hand news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals™ and minor league system for over 20 years