Jack Flaherty Extension

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  • #124254
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Enjoy these next few years kids because he gone after 2023

    #124258
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Flaherty is an odd case in that he seems on the surface to be a great fit for a team like the Cards but he also has a Tommy Pham like chip on his shoulder that says he’s a potential problem down the road. That said, I’d still throw a big number at him after this year (assuming he’s really good again) and see if he bites…something like 10 years and $300M.

    #124259
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    #124264
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    Penalizing players who get their contracts renewed is petty and heavy handed. “Here take this contract we’re forcing on you or we’re going to pay you less” seems like a fantastic strategy with star players.

    #124269
    Avatargscottar
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    Flaherty is an odd case in that he seems on the surface to be a great fit for a team like the Cards but he also has a Tommy Pham like chip on his shoulder that says he’s a potential problem down the road. That said, I’d still throw a big number at him after this year (assuming he’s really good again) and see if he bites…something like 10 years and $300M.

    I agree with this part. He is Pham 2.0 when it comes to the attitude. We should plan to go year to year with him for the next four seasons then offer him the QO, depending on what the rules are by then.

    The Cardinals should certainly do their due diligence but if he is determined to be a rabble rouser and troublemaker then we should enjoy the next four years and move on. We don’t need someone who could turn into a clubhouse cancer.

    • This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by Avatargscottar.
    #124270
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    I agree with this part. He is Pham 2.0 when it comes to the attitude. We should plan to go year to year with him for the next four seasons then offer him the QO, depending on what the rules are by then.

    All of us would be the same way if we knew we were not being paid our market value.

    #124272
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    BHC said:

    Penalizing players who get their contracts renewed is petty and heavy handed. “Here take this contract we’re forcing on you or we’re going to pay you less” seems like a fantastic strategy with star players.

    If I was Tony Clark, I would direct every 0-3 player across MLB to not accept their contract offer – just to draw more attention to the issue. Losing $10K on a salary of $600K is relatively insignificant.

    #124273
    Avatargscottar
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    All of us would be the same way if we knew we were not being paid our market value.

    No, the huge majority of players don’t act this way, at least not publicly. They know if they perform they will probably end up being compensated way more than their market value dictates eventually. (Carp, Fowler, Cecil)

    The system is what it is. It may be changed in the next CBA but until then the players have to live with it.

    #124274
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    gscottar said:

    The Cardinals should certainly do their due diligence but if he is determined to be a rabble rouser and troublemaker then we should enjoy the next four years and move on. We don’t need someone who could turn into a clubhouse cancer.

    I do not think this is a good reflection of the situation. My bet is that Flaherty is respected by his peers for taking a stance on behalf of all of them. I have seen nothing to indicate he is a problem in the clubhouse in any way or is a “me-first” individual.

    If Gussie Busch was still the owner, however, Jack would be traded to Tampa Bay next week.

    #124275
    Avatargscottar
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    If Gussie Busch was still the owner, however, Jack would be traded to Tampa Bay next week.

    That is what I was getting at. Flaherty may be respected amongst the players but how does the front office and ownership view his public displays of agitation? I suspect most owners wouldn’t appreciate it.

    #124278
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    So it looks like the Cardinals still signed Flaherty for $604,450 after giving him a $10K bonus coming in 4th in Cy Young voting. However, the last sentence of this article should be the most worrisome:

    The Cardinals and Flaherty, according to sources, were not able to find common ground for the discussion of an extension going into this spring training.

    https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/cardinals-finalize-contracts-for-all-players-on-roster-except-one/article_93faa2af-4600-53ec-b69b-42a822e752ae.html

    #124279
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    I doubt the owners’ skin is that thin. Flaherty is hardly the first or last player to speak out on Union matters. Heck, last spring at this time, Adam Wainwright warned of a strike coming – during the 2019 season. He was waaaay off base and there clearly were no significant ramifications. In negotiations, people talk. Sometimes it makes sense. Other times it is bluster. Such is the way of the world…

    #124280
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    That is what I was getting at. Flaherty may be respected amongst the players but how does the front office and ownership view his public displays of agitation? I suspect most owners wouldn’t appreciate it.

    As long as he doesn’t pull a Munoz it shouldn’t be an issue. Nothing has come out about him being toxic or a cancer. From all accounts he’s a great teammate. A contract dispute with ownership shouldn’t tank a player’s roster spot on a team.

    #124281
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    BHC, why does it surprise you that Flaherty and the Cards could not agree on a long-term deal? The team has signed many others in this situation, but Flaherty has made it clear he sees things differently. That is his right, but what frustrates me is those who call the team cheap with nothing to back it up. It is far easier to complain than to take the time to understand the underlying issues. (Not directing that at anyone here.)

    P.S. To explain further, a less talented player may be more willing to take money now and perhaps accept less in the future in return for the financial security. Teams try to lock up one or more of their free agent years. My guess is that Flaherty does not want to give up any FA years. If that is the case, then there is no benefit in signing a contract now, other than to avoid three annual hearings. He is betting that he will get better and better and be in line to earn even more and more each year down the road. I get it.

    #124282
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    BHC, why does it surprise you that Flaherty and the Cards could not agree on a long-term deal? The team has signed many others in this situation, but Flaherty has made it clear he sees things differently. That is his right, but what frustrates me is those who call the team cheap with nothing to back it up. It is far easier to complain than to take the time to understand the underlying issues. (Not directing that at anyone here.)

    Brian if you had paid attention to all of my posts about this you would have seen that this doesn’t surprise me. I was putting the information out there for others.

    PS – An extension usually gives the player an added safety net because they give up a few years of FA for more money in pre-arb years and set salary for arb years that are usually a little higher than might be if they went through the process. Jack is betting on himself and I’ve said this in other places. He isn’t going to take any discounts. Everyone should know that. He wants what he feels he is worth and right new he’s not getting paid that. The only way an extension gets done is for the Cardinals to sign him to a contract they have never signed before. Something in the 10 year $250-300M range.

    #124283
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    BHC, I reacted to your “worrisome” comment. For me, it is not worrisome, but instead “expected”.

    Stepping back, I am not worried at all. The Cardinals control Flaherty’s services for four more seasons. My only questions are how much he is going to make during that time and whether or not he will take the team to hearing each year ahead.

    #124286
    Avatar1982 willie
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    well right now Flaherty hasn’t earned a 250-300 million dollar contract. but if he does what he did last season this season, then he starts getting there. Probably would need to show similar stuff the next to make it certain. Flaherty shouldn’t give them any discounts and should fight for everything he feels hes worth. The cardinals are cheap when it comes to deserving players or a

    #124287
    Avatar1982 willie
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    sorry messed up. The cardinal are cheap. When it comes to deserving players or trying to get other players like but not limited to Arenado. But they will throw money out to players who don’t deserve it like carpenter and fowler which hamstrings the whole team.Their motto is we will not give long term 25 to 30 million dollar contracts to players that are known to be great just because there may be a few years they aren’t deserving of that much but we will gladly give 25 to thirty million a year extensions to players that never did anything in their careers to deserve that kind of money and who are in noticeable decline already.

    #124288
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    The Cardinals are paying Flaherty what the players association negotiated for Flaherty. If he has a problem, he should work to get that changed. I’m not sure what his $10,000 protest is accomplishing.

    Veterans are in charge of MLBPA. They will always negotiate a deal that rewards seniority, at the expense of the young players. That’s how unions work.

    #124289
    Avatar1982 willie
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    That’s not how all unions work or how they should. Seniority is a great thing to fight for but so are the new union members coming in. That’s how you stay union strong. Support the whole. But baseball players are probably like workers in unions which are fine with a contract if it benefits the established while hurting the newer members.

    #124295
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    How are those established MLB players doing in representing the interests of their next generation – the minor leaguers?

    #124297
    Avatargscottar
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    According the mutually agreed rules by the owners and players, the Cardinals are doing absolutely nothing wrong towards Flaherty just like the Cubs were doing nothing wrong against Bryant. Both teams are playing by the current rules. If the young players don’t like it they should try to get it addressed in the next CBA, which is two seasons away.

    #124303
    AvatarCariocaCardinal
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    Why the comparison of the attitudes of Flaherty and Pham? As far as I know, Flaherty has only spoken out against the pay system and never against the team. Have I missed something?

    #124305
    AvatarCariocaCardinal
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    The talk of a 10 year $300 million dollar extension for Flaherty is ridiculous. Even if he earned $5, $10, and $15 million a year during his arb years – which I am pretty sure would be in the top 10 of arb salaries for pitchers that would mean the rest of the contract would be basically 7 year $270 million or an average of over $38 million a year which is the highest AAV of any pitcher. Why should the Cards take that risk of injury 4 years earlier than necessary without a significant discount?

    #124309
    AvatarOquendo11
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    I think CC showed very clearly what the issue is.

    I don’t know what salary would make Jack happy. But if it would take a “market value” (contact he would get as a Free Agent) then it makes no sense for the Cardinals to offer that, especially considering the risk of injury to a pitcher.

    The sense I get, and I could certainly be wrong, is Jack is protesting the system and is not blaming the Cardinals for following the system. He probably KNOWS full well EVERY other team would pay him similarly (within a few thousand dollars more or less).

    If Jack wants to paid as a Free Agent, he will need to wait (hoping he doesn’t get injured) until he is a Free Agent or at the earliest the final arbitration year.

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