March 8, 2020 at 8:57 pm #1243141982 willieParticipantPaid - Annual
The cardinals aren’t doing anything wrong by the rules but that don’t make it right either. I don’t think anyone is saying he should be given a great lengthy contract at a huge sum of money for basically just one great year. The problem is pitchers are exposed to injury far more than any other position. Back in the day pitchers were trained to go the long haul of a game which meant not going out there throwing your hardest from the start, not throwing too many pitches of pitch types known to put strains on your arm but now they are taught the opposite, Basically go out there and give it your best stuff right away and very ofteh and then when you tire we will put another one in there who will do the same thing. So because of that in my mind, a lot more pitchers develop arm problems before they would have otherwise. So their window to make a lot of money can be shattered at any time. He takes all the risk. He gets injured, cardinals come out smelling like a rose and if he don’t and he is still pitching great, someone will have the audacity to wonder why he is asking for so much money.March 8, 2020 at 9:19 pm #124317
I think it’s about protesting the system, too. The problem that I see is that he isn’t proposing anything better for the system he wants to change. I think that at the heart of it all is the idea that successful rich people are the source of everybody’s problems, and the solution is to make them less rich. It’s part of the West Coast mindset. I just don’t see how getting more money for himself solves any of the problems that he wants to solve.
Disclaimer: I don’t read minds. I’m just taking a guess at what’s going on with this very young man who has much to learn about life.
BTW, I just want to mention that he’s only been really good for half a season so far.March 9, 2020 at 9:32 am #124336
The whole compensation system is headed towards upheaval.
Young players like Flaherty and Bryant want to be paid NOW without being tied down to the league minimum and arbitration process.
Veteran players like seniority and want to be paid based on what they used to be instead of what they are going to do in the future.
Front offices, now dominated by analytics, don’t want to pay either group. The sweet spot seems to be highly productive players age 26-29.
The next CBA should be a doozy.March 9, 2020 at 11:22 am #124342
Agreed, Gscottar. I am curious to see how it plays out. I suspect we’ll see guys hit arb and/or free agency a year earlier. That’ll affect the teams’ algorithms once again.March 9, 2020 at 11:55 am #124346
The talk of a 10 year $300 million dollar extension for Flaherty is ridiculous. Even if he earned $5, $10, and $15 million a year during his arb years – which I am pretty sure would be in the top 10 of arb salaries for pitchers that would mean the rest of the contract would be basically 7 year $270 million or an average of over $38 million a year which is the highest AAV of any pitcher. Why should the Cards take that risk of injury 4 years earlier than necessary without a significant discount?
I wanted to go back an address this. My premise is that if Flaherty was very good again, that it might be a risk worth taking. You’d be paying for his age 25-34 years, which would keep him here for his whole prime.
For a comp, Jacob DeGrom got 7.4M, 17M and then signed his extension. Flaherty, with another excellent season, would probably get something like that so let’s say 7M-16M-25M. So the other 7 years would be for $252M, or $36M a year. Is that high? Of course. But if Jack keeps putting up good years til he hits free agency at age 27, you’re gonna pay more than that in all likelihood.
Like I said, you put a nice offer out there and see if he bites. This low-ball stuff is for the birds and would just put us in a worse position to see him walk away to New York or LA in a few years.March 9, 2020 at 12:58 pm #124354
I am generally against regulations although it seems like people could not live together without them. I guess that’s why there are regulations everywhere. I don’t know what a fair salary for a baseball player would be, but I think that any reasonable person would agree that millions upon millions of dollars is too much, and that the free market with regard to baseball is not working in a way that makes sense. I wish the next CBA would do something about it.March 9, 2020 at 1:38 pm #124355BlackHillsCardParticipantFree
I don’t know what a fair salary for a baseball player would be, but I think that any reasonable person would agree that millions upon millions of dollars is too much
The same could be said about the billions and billions the owners control.March 9, 2020 at 1:57 pm #124356atripleshyofthecycleParticipantFree
And both would be wrong.March 9, 2020 at 2:44 pm #124357CariocaCardinalParticipantPaid - Monthly
25, you are basically betting on Flaherty being healthy for the next 4 years and also being the best pitcher in baseball. I can’t go there based on a 1/2 season of being elite. Along with that the Cards would be getting absolutely zero discount for taking all the risk and giving Flaherty the security of a long term contract 4 years early. I’ll pass. I’ll take my chances in signing him in free agency even if it ends uo costing a little more.March 9, 2020 at 3:24 pm #124360
In general I don’t like signing young players to long term deals, but especially not pitchers because of the heightened injury risk. At one point Michael Wacha looked as promising as Flaherty does now but the Cardinals wisely did not open the checkbook and several injuries later Wacha is on a one year $3M deal.March 9, 2020 at 3:32 pm #124362
25, you are basically betting on Flaherty being healthy for the next 4 years and also being the best pitcher in baseball. I can’t go there based on a 1/2 season of being elite. Along with that the Cards would be getting absolutely zero discount for taking all the risk and giving Flaherty the security of a long term contract 4 years early. I’ll pass. I’ll take my chances in signing him in free agency even if it ends uo costing a little more.
Again, it would be AFTER this year, so no I’m not getting on him being anything this year. If he’s good again, then work on an extension but you’re not going to get him for much below market rate and there’s a high chance you’ll be paying for his major decline years (35+) for several seasons. That’s just a big a gamble as signing a 25 year old for 10 years…bigger, I’d say.March 9, 2020 at 3:35 pm #124364
In general I don’t like signing young players to long term deals, but especially not pitchers because of the heightened injury risk. At one point Michael Wacha looked as promising as Flaherty does now but the Cardinals wisely did not open the checkbook and several injuries later Wacha is on a one year $3M deal.
People caught Wachamania, but I don’t think he was really as promising as Flaherty is now. It was always understood that he was a #3 type starter who pitched out of his mind for a month.
That said, I understand your position and the Cards certainly have been overcautious with pitchers deals. It’s probably their #1 organizational philosophy, in fact. It’s not foolproof, however. Sometimes the charts are just wrong and you miss on a golden opportunity because you fail to engage at all (see Scherzer, Max).March 9, 2020 at 9:03 pm #124385
BHC – What’s your point? Do you want baseball teams to be owned by the City Hall in the city they play in because that way excess money would be redistributed fairly? When a person complains without proposing something better, he more or less forfeit his right to complain, IMO. At least I said I wished the next CBA would do something about it. What do you say?November 16, 2020 at 8:43 am #147475
Jim Bowden wrote a new article identifying one player on every team who MUST be given a contract extension THiS off-season. Not surprisingly for the Cardinals, he chose Flaherty, and explains why Jack would deserve it, but everyone (except Bowden, apparently) knows that is not the issue. Bowden did not acknowledge in any way the significant challenges in getting Flaherty to accept. Disappointing “analysis” without any “real GM” insight.November 16, 2020 at 12:28 pm #147519Pork TwainParticipant
Past trends are what make me nervous about signing ANY pitcher to a long-term contract. Michael Wacha, Carlos Martinez, Shelby Miller, Eric Gagne, Trevor Rosenthal, Barry Zito, Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Homer Bailey, Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Mark Mulder, etc… I realize there are many more instances of things working out well, but the chance that it could end in disaster, with mid-market team, is why I am ok with the Cards not committing to ANY 7-10 year deals.November 16, 2020 at 7:14 pm #147531
….. especially for a politically minded and rather immature pitcher who has indicated that he cares nothing about the organization or it’s fan base, and that the only important thing for him is to wring as much money out of the organization and it’s fan base as he possibly can. Forget about ‘team friendly’ or ‘hometown discount’ with this character.November 16, 2020 at 10:07 pm #147537ILcardfanParticipantFree
I have had the same thoughts about flaherty. I’m sure it wouldn’t be a popular opinion around here but I would be listening to offers on him. If you can get a kings ransom then deal him.November 17, 2020 at 7:39 am #147539UncleDennyParticipant
Good time to sell high and beef up other positionsNovember 17, 2020 at 7:53 am #147543
Jim Bowden turns out wrong more than any ex-GM should ever. I guess that’s why he’s not working for a team. If Flaherty was open to an extension, no doubt the Cards would have done so by now.
That said, I wouldn’t trade him either unless someone was willing to offer a crazy deal, like two stud prospects. Like Kirilloff and Royce Lewis or something like that. He’s still here for 3 years and we can always trade him later. If he’s pitching great, someone will offer a good deal. Worst case, we take the draft pick if that’s still on the table and part ways.November 17, 2020 at 10:22 am #147566
I think Bowden is a pretty smart guy actually. He has some good insights on the radio when he takes the time to dig deep instead of just trying to be entertaining. I would much rather listen to him than I would Steve Phillips, who is blatantly biased in favor of the owners over the players.
Bowden’s writing usually isn’t as good as his radio because they are usually just puff pieces like this one. When you only devote one paragraph to each team you don’t have enough time to explain all of the nuances around what is actually going on.January 17, 2021 at 7:14 am #151998
Will Leitch knows baseball and the Cardinals, but put out a puff piece at MLB.com on one player every team should “lock up”. In the process, he perpetuates the myth that teams can induce players to sign at will (pun intended).
He chooses Flaherty for the Cardinals, of course, completely ignoring the pitcher’s unwillingness to even agree to his pre-arbitration offers the last two years, let alone his upcoming hearing. Nor is there any mention of the uncertainty the upcoming CBA brings to any long-term deals this winter.
Still, casual fans read this kind of stuff and then criticize the front office for not locking up the player long term.
“Get ‘er done, Mo!” “Sitting on your hands again, Mo!” “If you are not going to sign him, you may as well trade him!” etc…January 17, 2021 at 7:39 am #151999forsch31ParticipantFree
This morning on MLB on XM, whatever show they had on, they mentioned Flaherty when talking about the Angels pitching. They made a comment that Flaherty will be a Dodger when he gets to free agency. They figured the Cardinals will nickel and dime him too much.January 17, 2021 at 8:19 am #152001
BW, there’s likely a point where the Cards *could* lock up Flaherty long term. We don’t really know what that number is, but that doesn’t stop folks from speculating. I’ve done it myself. Slow times call for people to write about something, I guess.
The best thing for both Flaherty and the Cards is for him to go out and pitch to his potential the next three years and see where the chips fall. If that’s signing him for $35M a year, so be it. If that’s letting him go, then ok too.January 17, 2021 at 10:04 am #152005blingboyParticipantPaid - Annual
My gut tells me Flaherty wears out his welcome well before free agency looms.January 17, 2021 at 10:15 am #152006
stlcard25, I agree that anything is possible until it is proven not to be. Getting that out of the way, how much money do you think it would take for Flaherty to give up his free agent rights and sign an extension? And what are the odds the cost-cutting Cards would make such an offer – in the middle of the pandemic?
I don’t know the details of the situations of the other 29 players named in the story, but I bet Flaherty’s odds are in the bottom five.
I get the speculation part, but if I am writing about it, I am at least going to be honest about the low likelihood that it will happen any time soon.
I guess we can go back to talking about Arenado… Being honest, it would be debatable to me which of the two is more likely. But that is just me…
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