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Yeah, Mo has to give Ollie what is sometimes referred to as the “dreaded” vote of confidence. He overdid it with saying he has done an “amazing” job.
No one that takes a team forecasted to win the division and has the record we have in June has done an “amazing” job.
The more truthful answer would be something like, “It has been a tough early season for Ollie with the struggles the club has experienced, but he has the trust of the players and we have faith that this thing will turn around.”
A super honest response would be this: “No one, and this starts with me, has done a good job so far this year – not me nor anyone in management nor the players. We all know this, and are working hard to get things back on track.”
But people rarely are that candid. Usually in public commentary people sugar coat, or deflect, or point fingers.
Marmol is doing what Marmol is told to do. He IS a problem and could not carry Herzog’s or LaRussa’s jock BUT he’s not the REAL problem. I’m afraid the REAL problem is the owner – and you can’t fire the owner….
Mo loses credibility saying Ollie has done an “amazing” job. If he has done an “amazing” job, Mo must figure we are a “20 below .500” club, but Ollie is keeping us only a dozen or so under water. In reality we are closer to a .500 club that is well below that.
Mo has usually been above reproach as far as his character and persona. But cracks are forming as this year is progressing. His year-by-year short-term strategy over the last five years or so has resulted in a weakened roster, and his controlling environment is not working.
Been watching the MLB bio special on Terry “Tito Jr” Francona. Obviously a biopic will usually be presented in a way that make you like the subject. Still, I cannot see how the Cardinals did not bring him on board when they had the chance.
I know Matheny is a class act and surely interviewed well and had roots in the organization. But Tito knew what it took to win. In fact there are some clips of Theo Epstein talking about Francona, and when he brought him on to manage Boston he said he wanted someone with experience in running a big league club.
Cardinal management makes conflicting decisions. They build clubs with a goal of competing now, but yet keep hiring rookie managers.
Yep, I have said this a thousand times Mike but I think bypassing Francona at the end of 2011 was one of the biggest blunders this front office has made and that is saying something. But as soon as TLR left they knew that they didn’t want a manager offering pushback ever again.
I think it comes down to hubris. Mo cannot imagine that his manager needs any knowlege beyond knowing the system and how the MLB manager works within it. That being the case, it is best to avoid the chance of any distraction or infection from outside ideas. It is an aspect of the Analytics Derangement I have mentioned.
Yep gents, you guys make some good comments. Theo, as much as we don’t like him as he built two clubs that knocked us around, understood the concept of staffing your weaknesses. He brought in people who knew how to do their jobs, and was not so ego driven that he had to meddle in their area of expertise.
From all we hear about the Cardinals operation, you do things under the direction of the POBO or you don’t work here. And that has worked okay for awhile, but has fallen apart this year.
Theo’s teams could not sustain because he couldn’t/wouldn’t build a farm system, especially pitching. He succeeded because he had deep pocketed owners who would spend to win and not worry about down the road.
If you want a go for broke run for a title or two, Theo is your man. If you want sustained excellence, you won’t get it from him. His M.O. Is to bail out when the good times are over.
Don’t you think maybe just a little of his success may have been a result of having both Tito and Joe situated on the top step?
I don’t know if his job is in jeopardy or not, but I’m entirely convinced that the current Redbird field manager is the worst I’ve experienced in 57 years of following the St. Louis, Cardinals. Worse than Vern Rapp. Rapp was handed the keys to a second rate ballclub and over the course of two seasons simply made things worse. He got behind the wheel of an old used Plymouth and banged it up against the guardrail. The current Cardinal manager took over the reins of a very good baseball team and over the course of a season and a half has them firmly entrenched in last place. He jumped on a nice horse and ran it straight into a ditch. He’s way worse than Vern Rapp.
My take, as has been stated before, is that the way the Cardinals are structured the manager is almost irrelevant because the big decisions are made upstairs. Not totally irrelevant but the days of the old school manager ruling with an iron fist are long gone. Now it is spreadsheets emailed down to the managers office that he either follows or else. And all roster decisions are made from above. Do you think Ollie Marmol picked this pitching staff or is happy with it? Heck no but he knows better to say something.
Having said that I think an argument could be made to make a managerial change based on our record and level of play but there are other factors to consider.
1. Ollie’s contract runs through 2024 and we know the Cardinals don’t like to eat money.
2. Ollie was Mo’s most recent handpicked guy and we know the front office feels about admitting mistakes.
3. If a change was made the new manager would be the 4th manager since TLR left. That is a lot of turnover for this organization who previously used 3 managers in 30 years. I think the front office might be concerned that a few alert fans might pick up on the idea that the organization might have problems other than the manager.
Theo’s teams did regress, but he was not exactly a one hit wonder. The Red Sox won it all in 2004, and proceeded to win 90+ games through 2011 other than two years, and they won 89 and 86 in those two years. They got another ring in 2007.
His 2015 Cubs team won 97, then won it all the next with two 90+ win seasons after that, before coming back to earth.
He did do some farm system gutting, especially in Chicago. But his teams were real good for a reasonable amount of time and could have accumulated 2 or 3 more titles with post season success.
The common denominator was owners willing to spend. It would be interesting to see what he could do with a club on a modest player salary budget.
#STLCards President of Baseball Operations John Mozeliak said that manager Oliver Marmol will return for the 2024 season.
— John Denton (@JohnDenton555) September 15, 2023
This concerns me a little bit, this easily could be that Dewitt is to cheap to eat the remaining year on Marmol’s contract, if he is that cheap I don’t see him paying what is needed thru free agency to get a couple of front of the rotation starting pitchers
Another great move by this front office! Lol! Makes you have lots of confidence they will fix the pitching staff!
Well marmol is returning, things definitely won’t improve next year. The old adage of doing the same thing over n over but expecting a different outcome applies. I think the whole lot of cardinals management needs to go. I guess the allure of last place is hard to let go of
Team probably ends up losing 90-91 games and now sits 18 back of the first place Brewers.
That is a heck of a lot of ground to make up in one year considering we are holding up the division.
WC spot is probably about the best to hope for in 2024 BUT with moves this Winter and then moves next winter – 2025 could be the year we finally have a team that has a realistic shot to be in the WS.
2015 was the last year I felt like we had a shot to get to the WS going into the season….
Apparently one of the Cardinals assistant hitting coaches took a job as assistant hitting coach at Ole Miss Softball, he came to the Cardinals from Seton Hall where he coached Softball….if that does not sum up the resources spent on this team and staff then I don’t know what does.
Credit to the Athletic writer for this tidbit
Marmol on Mo's comments yesterday ensuring he'll be back next season: "At the end of the day, there's a lot of trust between myself and the front office and our staff. The reality is, there is a lot of work to be done and I'm excited to be able to do that." #STLCards pic.twitter.com/TchRVam3pr
— Bally Sports Midwest (@BallySportsMW) September 16, 2023
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