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I don’t much care for Marmol as a manager and there are many things about his pitching management and on-field decisions that irk me, but I wonder how many of our mounting number of losses can be directly or indirectly attributed to his decisions. He doesn’t swing the bat, he doesn’t throw the ball, he doesn’t run the bases. All those millionaires do. And those millionaires collect their millions whether they produce or not. And therein lies the real problem. There is no penalty for failure to perform. At the end of the day, these guys are going to collect no matter what they do. It’s built into the system. You decide to dog it around third and there are no real consequences. I tell my boss I had a terrific week last week, and he says yes, but what have you done for me today.
Although it’ll never happen and neither party would ever even entertain the possibility, I’m a little surprised I haven’t seen Yadier Molina’s name mentioned as a candidate for the Cardinal manager’s job. I’d like to see it only because it would be first rate entertainment in both the dugout and in the post-game pressers. Without question Yadier belongs not only in the baseball HOF, but also in the all time great interview HOF. It could also quite possibly create a dangerous atmosphere for those that would be responsible for hiring the great former Redbird catcher in the sense that I can clearly envision the genuine possibility of the major case squad conducting a homocide investigation relating to the sudden disappearance of several Redbird executives…At any rate, Molina’s too smart to place himself in a position in which he would be subjected to any bothersome annoyances and Johnny doesn’t strike me as the sort who could be termed a danger seeker.
That would be interesting but I agree that Yadi would not be anyone’s puppet. I am pretty sure he told Matheny, Shildt, and Marmol when he would and wouldn’t play instead of the other way around. Mo’s spreadsheets and laptops wouldn’t stand a chance.
I’ll also say that in regard’s to Molina, I feel he’d be a first rate Big League manager for an organization who’d be willing to hire him. I don’t think there’s any question as to whether he’d have his guys dead set ready to play every game and it’d be my guess that no one could manipulate a 5 man or BP as well him. Moreover, he always impressed me as not only knowing every subtle area of the game, but also of possessing the intense focus contained in the lens and crosshairs of a telescopic rifle sight. He could end up being “The Ol’ Perfessor” of the Caribbean Isles…
Looking around the majors, I see six managers worse than Marmol, 16 better than him, and seven I’m undecided about. That makes him somewhere between the 17th and 24th best manager working today. And that’s not nearly good enough, for the St. Louis Cardinals organization. (It’s not unlike when John Groce was the Illini basketball coach. He wasn’t terrible, but he was certainly unworthy of that proud program.)
By my estimates, Ollie is simply average or worse at everything. I can’t think of one aspect of managing at which Marmol is above average. He has rarely if ever puts the best lineup on the field, at their best defensive positions. He pulls starters early with some regularity — which would be fine, except he also refuses to have a longman/swingman in his bullpen…then he whines that his bullpen is overworked and puts 2nd-and-3rd-tier relievers in the highest leverage situations possible. (Gave away a pair of games this season inexcusably using Hicks that way.)
Having never played or managed above A-Ball, Marmol seemingly has zero understanding of the importance of roles at the MLB level, especially in the bullpen. In the most glaring example, last Tuesday Gallegos was his closer, protecting a 2-1 win. Then in the team’s very next game, he brings in Gallegos in the 7th inning with a 4-run lead. Unsurprisingly this backfired horrifically. No other manager in the majors would have done the weirdness Marmol did with Gallegos back-to-back. Marmol clearly thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room, and he ain’t.
I could go on for 1,000 more words, but Marmol’s shortcomings have been covered quite well by others here. I’d probably give Ollie until the All-Star break to get the club back to .500, but then I might feel differently if they get humiliated by the Rangers over the next few days. And of course Stubby is the obvious choice for interim manager, having won multiple AAA championships as a manager, and reached MLB as a player. He was the logical guy 18 months ago, and still is.
That Friday loss to PIT was a proverbial Waterloo. As that game progressed from the 3rd inning, the less and less comfortable I felt with a 5-0 lead. Then, when the Pirates scored a solitary run in the 6th to cut the lead to 4, I felt as though it were a 1 run game. There’s just something inherently wrong about that. That single loss seemed to wipe out the entire month of May and revert the team back to the latter part of April.
“Ask the Royals about Matheny. Matheny inherited a very good situation here and did well for awhile before running out of steam.”
These are comments worth dissecting, I think.
We can’t ask the Royals or their fans what they think about Matheny, but we can see how they did before he arrived, while he was there, and after he left.
In the two seasons immediately preceding Matheny’s managerial tenure for Kansas City, the Royals won 36% of their games, for an average victory total of 59.
In the three campaigns under Matheny, the Royals won 43% of their games, which projects to 70 wins per full season.
This year (their first post-Matheny, of course) Kansas City is 18 up and 42 down, for a winning percentage of .300. This is one time when a .300 average is not so good.
So, let’s review. Pre-Matheny, average season 59-103. With Mike, 70-92. Post-Matheny, on pace for 49 wins. It ain’t the amazing magical instant transformation of Bruce Bochy & the 2023 Rangers, but it sure looks like Mike Matheny inherited garbage and nevertheless made the Royals markedly better during his tenure.
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In St. Louis, Mike Matheny took over a club that just lost Albert Pujols to free agency, had a mediocre farm system, and was forecast by Vegas to finish 6 games over.500. Not sure I’d call that a “very good situation” to inherit. That club finished 14 games over .500 and advanced to the NLCS where they lost in seven games.
Then Matheny led the Birds to baseball’s best record in two of the next three seasons. To me, that’s vastly better than “did well for awhile.” That’s a tremendous four-year run that seems like a distant dream now.
The Matheny years in St. Louis did indeed run out of steam as it became clear that John Mabry could not coach young batters who were still developing — “get ahead in the count then swing hard at anything because it might be a strike” was his mantra, spoken or unspoken. There were other problems, but in my opinion it was 80-90% Mabry + Fowler that led to Matheny’s demise here. Anyway, if the Birds won’t replace Marmol with Stubby, and insist on someone who’s won a pennant, then I’d be as happy with Matheny as I would with Ned Yost, Ozzie Guillen, Mike Scioscia, et. al.
But really, it shouldn’t come to that.
Stubby could be our Snitker, if only the front office will give him a chance.Not many rookie managers inherit a team that just won a World Series. It is practically unheard of. Most rookie managers get a complete rebuilding effort. Matheny was very fortunate. And we chose him over Terry Francona.
In my opinion we already had our Snitker. His name was Mike Shildt.
Stubby would be the logical replacement if Marmol is replaced but the Cardinals have a tendency to promote bench coaches, which would be Joe McEwing.
Marmol has been a poor manager since the beginning. I thought he should have been fired after the playoffs. Now, without Yadi and Skip and with the team performance his issues are magnified. Someone with real major league experience needed. They should choose an interim for now so the choice can be evaluated before it becomes permanent.
Shildt probably was fired for trying to participate in the process rather than being a marionette controlled from upstairs. I doubt anyone of substance would take the job even if such a person would be offered the job, which won’t happen.
I experienced the identical reaction after that first ’22 post-season game, Patti, and quickly came to the conclusion that it was an irrational and unreasonable one simply because everyone has a bad day or two. Since that time, I’ve once again been reminded that initial reactions that are instinctive quite often prove to be the sort that point to the correct solution and I’m convinced that this guy should have been replaced several weeks ago.
Bob Reed said:
In St. Louis, Mike Matheny took over a club that just lost Albert Pujols to free agency, had a mediocre farm system, and was forecast by Vegas to finish 6 games over.500.
The highlighted part isn’t central to the points being made, as it has little to do with the MLB field manager, but the rankings at the time Matheny took over and the next few years following do not support the point.
I have the national rankings of the Cardinals farm system back to 2009. These rankings are the average of BA, BP, Law, Sickels and BaseballHQ. They came out in the prior off-season.
Cards farm system ranking of 30:
2012 #9
2013 #1
2014 #8 …The Cards system was actually far worse in the years just before Matheny became manager, but the trend was positive.
2010: #29
2011: #19A loss tonight and you have to replace Ollie with Stubby in my opinion. Really it is probably just a matter of time. Management could wait until the All Star break.
Bob mentions the fiasco last Friday, which for me was the “back breaker”’as I called it at the time. Ollie would have been gone early Saturday morning if I was boss.
But he did that same thing a week or two earlier. He had used Stratton the night before, with Gallegos and Helsley rested. We go into the 7th or 8th, not sure which, in a game we are down 1-0 and he brings Stratton back!! I said on the game thread that night “are Gallegos and Helsley unavailable?” Sure enough we allow a few runs and a game that was winnable was lost.
Like Bob said, no other manager in baseball would do that. Marmol managed it like “we are going to lose anyway so I may as well give my top two guys another day off in case I need them tomorrow.”
No wonder our club looks beat from the first pitch.
From my seat it’s deteriorated to a degree worse than from 1st pitch, Bikemike. It’s the gut feeling of a genuine losing atmosphere. Even when what should be a comfortable lead is present, I’m simply watching and waiting for it to evaporate. An perfect example is the 7-5 loss to the Pirates over last weekend. The Cardinals enjoyed a nice and cozy 5-0 lead in that game and the longer that lead held up, the more uncomfortable I became. The Pirates scored a solitary run in the 6th to cut the lead to 4 and at that very instant I was convinced that game was going to be placed in the right hand column…There’s something inherently wrong with that.
Mike, my question on that is there really any difference between Stratton, Gallegos, or Helsley? Their overall stats are very similar when it comes to ERA, WHIP, and Avg. against. Stratton has one blown save, Gallegos has two, and Helsey has four.
In my opinion none of the three are closer caliber relivers. They are, at best, set up guys. They could trade all three and it would be fine by me.
Hochman: Just exactly who’s to blame for the St. Louis Cardinals’ demise? Everybody. https://t.co/W58XopFKVw
— STLToday Sports News (@STL_SportsNews) June 7, 2023
I have the national rankings of the Cardinals farm system back to 2009.
I kind of think that is also how the Front Office evaluates the system as well, which is a big part of the problem, since how it rates is irrelevant. The objective of the system is not to impress those rating the 30 systems, and light up whatever metrices and spreadsheets and algos they use. The system exist solely for the purpose of supplying the MLB roster with what it needs. If the system has been so great, where are they? Why have we for years been importing most of the rotation, and all of it that is any good. How are those home grown starters doing? How much of the pen do we have to go out and get. What about the impact position players? We haven’t developed a middle of the order bat since Pujols. The middle of the order is all brought in. We tried and failed to develop a catcher to follow Yadi. We develop pretty good complementary pieces and that is all the system has been able to do for quite a long time. In other words, it stinks at doing what it is supposed to be doing. How some wonks think it rates is irrelevant, and certainly isn’t worth gushing about.
Gscottar – the problem was two fold. First, Stratton had been used the night before and Gallegos and Helsley had not. Second, Gallegos and Helsley are your go to guys in late and close. Whether they have struggled some this year or not, they have been the guys. Stratton has been more of a mop-up guy.
And I will add a third dimension – inherent in what I said about Gallegos and Helsley being the go-to guys. You bring Stratton, again he pitched the not before and the others did not, into a 1-0 game, what does that tell the team? It says “I am not too concerned with keeping this one close as I doubt we will score tonight, so I better keep my top guys ready in case we are winning tomorrow.”
It communicates a defeatist attitude. “Let’s wave the white flag tonight boys.” It makes sense in a blowout, but not in a 1-0 game.
Bling – we actually have developed middle order bats, but we traded them, or in the case of Garcia basically gave him away. So far we have kept Gorman, thank goodness.
Marmol should be fired just because he keeps putting Gorman third. He did better as 5th or 6th. That’s where he belongs. He strikes too much to be 3rd spot hitter.
In the 6/2 Friday night game, I was okay with him using Pallante to finish off the 6th inning. Marmol’s mistake was bringing him back out for the 7th. Better to pitch Stratton. If he’s on, which is at least two thirds of the time, he will give you two innings.
At this point it is the 9th. Even if he now brings in Gallegos, you can employ a quick hook because you only need a couple more outs to win the game.
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