Is it time for a complete rebuild?

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  • #165483
    LACardFan
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    The club was recognized as having one of the best, if nit the best, Analytics group in the business.

    I don’t know when that was ever considered to be the case outside of Cardinals fans

    #165486
    forsch31
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    When you look at the drafts of Flores, he seems to be doing a fairly good job.

    2016 – Perez, Carlson, Hudson, Gallen, Edman, Knizner
    2017 (penalty year) – Hurst, Robertson, Mendoza, Whitley
    2018 – Gorman, Roberts, Baker, Gil, Donovan, Nootbar
    2019 – Thompson, Fletcher, Locey
    2020 – Walker, Winn, Hence, Burleson

    These are just the better known names. There are a few others that could be value picks.

    #165489
    LACardFan
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    2017 – None of them look like foundational pieces. Robertson is probably a backup IF, Whitley a mediocre reliever. Mendoza is struggling in AAA.
    2018 – Roberts appears to be a bust, Baker has not done much of anything in his pro career, Gil was traded
    2019 – Thompson is really struggling in AAA. Fletcher is at the complex. Locey is traded. There are some that are doing better at the lower levels (Pallante, Connor Thomas, Todd Lott). The 2019 class seems like the one most impacted by the lost year.

    #165525
    ZTR
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    So, at this point in 2021 it’s probably time to face the facts. 10 games out and sinking fast. Unlike other teams in the past, this edition of the Cardinals has neither, the hitting nor the pitching to make up this margin and outside of Flaherty nothing coming back from injury to make a substantive difference in 2021.

    We can pound on this team all we want but it’s not going to change anything – they are just simply mediocre to bad, so –

    In looking forward to 2022, what can the Cardinals reasonably do and what do they need to do with the balance of this season to build the team for next season?

    Continue the revolving door of relief pitching auditions?

    Go youth movement early?

    Tell Mikolas and Flaherty they are NOT coming back this season and avoid the chance of reinjury?

    Trade Goldschmidt? (I’m not for this one).

    Trade Wainwright and Molina to contenders for something?

    I really think the lineup is only a couple of players away from being productive. It’s the starting pitching that has me worried – imo we need to acquire two good and one ace type starting pitcher to fix the rotation.

    If we fix the rotation I think, by default, it fixes the bullpen – especially if Hicks comes back strong.

    Is Schildt the manager to lead the team?

    The team really is swiss cheese full of holes though. It needs a ton of pieces….

    #165532
    blingboy
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    he team really is swiss cheese full of holes though. It needs a ton of pieces….

    Depth in the upper system is also swiss cheese which complicates any recovery scenario. Just getting a few pieces for the active roster won’t solve the problem with no depth. Its a marathon as we know, it takes depth to compete. But on the plus side, ballpark village development has come along nicely.

    #165533
    dac8b9
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    Ztr, I’ll tell you what I hope happens. I hope we mostly focus on improving the pitching this off-season and also sign one or two Brad Miller types for the bench. Basically, I would be happier if they tried to make a lot of smart value signings rather than going for a big fish.

    The thing I want them to avoid is trading prospects again to target some older star just to placate the fan base. Our system is being rebuilt and we seem to have done well our last couple drafts, but most of our prospects are still years away from contributing. Let’s just be patient, rebuild our system, and focus on making smart moves to build out or depth on the big league club. With the way our depth is at the majors and at Memphis, we may be a few key injuries away from our season getting derailed for the next couple years.

    #165537
    14NyquisT
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    But on the plus side, ballpark village development has come along nicely.

    This will be said over and over again in DeWitt’s office. Why face the negative that is the Cards organization is falling apart.

    #165538
    bccran
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    Is Kim a free agent? Maybe not.

    #165541
    dac8b9
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    Bccran, I believe when we acquired Kim it was a two year contract, so he should be a free agent. I probably wouldn’t re-sign him in particular, as his peripherals last year showed that his ERA was a bit flukey, and his performance this year is more in line with his advanced stats. He was definitely a good signing, but I wouldn’t extend him as I think the league is catching up to him. That said, that is the type of signing I would like to see the Cardinals do. Some low-risk, value signings to build out our depth that won’t kill us if one or two don’t work out but could pay off big if they do. Make them short-term, have competition for the rotation in Spring Training and whomever doesn’t make the final five can be used to strengthen the bullpen.

    Also, something I would like our organization to be much more aggressive with is acquiring minor leaguers from other organizations and stashing them at Memphis and Springfield. Basically taking flyers on guys that are intriguing but have run out of options from other organizations, just to rebuild some of our depth particularly at Memphis. The Dodgers and Giants are really good at this and it could really pay off huge. They take a lot of chances on guys and many don’t work out, but the ones that do can really help with depth and make your organization much stronger as a result. We should be taking a lot of flyers on guys and churning through them until we find some gems worth keeping, particularly with pitching spots.

    #165557
    gscottar
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    Maybe we should look around at the best front offices in the game and learn something. The Dodgers and Yankees have very good front offices but they also have unlimited resources. Pound for pound the best are the Rays, A’s, and Indians. Why are they so good?

    They each specialize in something. They Rays are the absolute best at making trades and player development. The A’s are very good at taking other team’s spare parts and turning them into productive players. That is called talent evaluation and development. The Indians are the absolute best at developing pitching. They don’t need a great offense because they always have a great built from within rotation. In the last few years they have turned out Kluber, Bauer, Carrasco, Clevinger, Bieber, Plesac, and Civale.

    Is the Cardinals front office the best at anything? Not really. We are pretty good at drafting, average at development, dismal lately at evaluation, very spotty at trades and free agents, and the worst at contract extensions. One new rule should be no more long term contracts to players over 30. Long term being more than two years.

    I would use the estimated $50M we have for 2022 to get two pitchers, one LH bat and some depth pieces and I agree we should not be giving up any prospects of value at all.

    #165560
    bccran
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    The Cards have been one of the best at pitcher development.

    #165570
    dac8b9
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    I think one of our organizations strengths is scouting and we are good at development, though not as innovative as some clubs. We are really good at producing major leaguers, guys that turn into two or three win players, and in general we have had a lot of players outperform what prospect evaluators thought they would be. The problem is that in the last few years, some of the most notable examples are doing it for other organizations because our front office didn’t realize what they had or couldn’t give them adequate playing time for them to demonstrate it.

    #165571
    gscottar
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    The Cards have been one of the best at pitcher development.

    You wouldn’t know it by looking at this year’s staff.

    The problem is that in the last few years, some of the most notable examples are doing it for other organization

    Yes that is a problem.

    #165573
    jj-cf-stl
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    The A’s give playing time to players when no-one else will. They replaced Semien with Andrus. Who wanted Andrus here?

    They traded for Tony Kemp this winter, a career 85 ops+ over 863 PA’s. Was he on any wish lists here? He’s played in 71 games this season, sporting a 131 ops+.

    Guys can’t breakout without playing time. Committed playing time. And OAK is a contender, this isn’t the Pirates hunting for gems.

    #165594
    ZTR
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    I think we need a new GM and then let him do his thing. With players, coaches, and staff.

    Time to sell and take our lumps for the next 3 years.

    #165608
    bccran
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    That will never happen, ZTR. Cardinal fans don’t want that.

    #165612
    mspaid
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    These owners have never done a rebuild and never will. They’ve never been sellers that I can remember. This entire thread is superfluous. Mo will pick up a few wavier-wire guys and that’s it. Get over it and move on to 2022.

    #165616
    BrockLou
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    mspaid is correct. I’ve been following the Cards for decades, and they never make any moves at the deadline. One exception was Matt Holliday.
    We just gotta hope this injury thing is a fluke, this year on ly.

    #165620
    1964cards
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    I do not believe a total rebuild is in order. The club is currently paying the price of ownership not wanting to spend much in the offseason. It is time to start addressing the shortfalls of the roster.

    The team’s performance over the past few weeks has lead me to believe that this club is unlikely to make the playoffs this season. I am hoping they can finish above .500, but that may be a challenge. The Front Office needs to start thinking and positioning the roster for 2022. The club is in fourth place and ten games behind the Division Leader. It will be hard to catch Milwaukee and I do not see a Wild Card team coming out of the central unless one of the teams in the West collapses.

    The pitching staff needs to help – rotation and bullpen. They should add a quality lead off hitter who can set the table. The bench needs depth.

    #165621
    Ratsbuddy
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    When they traded for Arenado all the big shots thought that he was the missing piece. He was the last piece of the puzzle that was going to propel them to 90+ wins and a good chance at the NL Central crown. But he has been a disappointment so far. And so has Goldschmidt. Goldy is having his worst year in St. Louis. The two BIG bats in the order are not getting it done for the Cardinals. Those two are the main reasons the team is where it is.

    The only thing that might save 2021 would be if Milwaukee hits the skids and loses 6-7 in a row and 9 out of 10. While at the same time the Cards win 6-7 in a row and 11 of 12. That might get them back to 3-4 games out going into September.

    As Arenado and Goldschmidt go, so go the Cards. And right now they arent doing much so the Cards arent going anywhere. The front office will sit pat this off-season and talk about how they expect those two to rebound in 2022 and that will be what the club needs.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #165626
    mspaid
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    Rats:

    Your last paragraph is what this organization is…sadly.

    #165629
    LoganAlpha30X7
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    All of that after saying why make any trades when getting injured guys back is like making a trade, or something along those lines…

    #165630
    1964cards
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    Logan, I understand the point you make. Getting everyone healthy will help. However, it looks like many of us believe the roster needs help even when this happens.

    #165634
    dac8b9
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    I’m more optimistic that there is going to be significant turnover this off-season. Maybe not any big name acquisitions, but we are losing four bad contracts that will free up a lot of money, in addition to guys like Kim, Wainwright and Molina that you will need to make decisions on. The pressure of Arenados opt out will also mean they need to make moves to fix the team. They should finally have an idea of which young players are worth keeping at this point and which ones they can move on from. I just hope they mostly use free agency to fill the holes rather than trading prospects, which has not worked out well for us the last several years.

    #165635
    bccran
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    Matt Carpenter – .177
    Paul DeJong – .176
    Harrison Bader – .225
    Andrew Knizner – .186
    Justin Williams – .160
    Lane Thomas – .104

    Never seen anything quite like that on a Cardinal team.

Viewing 25 posts - 176 through 200 (of 305 total)
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