Is it time for a complete rebuild?

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  • #164604
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Gorman still hasn’t proved that he is adequate at 2B this season. But if he hits that becomes moot.

    #164607
    bccran
    Participant

    I’d play Sosa at SS and Edman at 2B right now. Give Nootbaar a week or two in the starting lineup to settle in.

    #164687
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    It looks like Nootbaar will get his chance in the outfield…. just like the others. And who knows when Bader will get back and if he will hit well enough to start.

    #164689
    bccran
    Participant

    That will be an interesting situation if Nootbaar passes this initial test.
    Where do you put Bader??

    #164690
    blingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It’s hard to see a fire sale type rebuild because we have nothing of value to offload except a handful of young guys which would be counterproductive. Carlson, edman, oneall, Flaherty, a couple relievers,Gorman. That’s it.

    #164691
    LACardFan
    Participant

    Free

    We have to hope that Andrew Miller can pitch lights out up until the trade deadline, and that there is a market for Kim.

    Those are the only two that would figure to be tradeable.

    #164692
    Ratsbuddy
    Participant

    Free

    By the trade deadline we might be 10-12 games above .500 and either in 1st place or right near it. Things can change in the next few weeks.

    Then again, who knows. We might be 10-12 games out.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #164693
    Wooster
    Participant

    Free

    I don’t want to sit through a couple years of losing if it goes to a complete rebuild. I am not as concerned with the pitching injured. The new guys are giving up some runs and the differential has gone up but: We have not been much of a run scoring team for years. We have been able to barely win by keeping the other team down and scratching out a few runs. Great pitchings gone and now we’re losers. Haven’t seen anybody on whole team BA near or above 300. Not gonna do it like that. Some old wood needs to good and we have to bring in some young guys and let ’em play. Might as well start now in my opinion.

    #164701
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Haven’t seen anybody on whole team BA near or above 300.

    I get what you are saying Wooster but I have been thinking for awhile that we need to re-evaluate what we think a good batting average is. Historically if a player hit .300 he was considered a very good hitter but times have changed.

    Do you know how many players in all of MLB are currently hitting .300 or better? The answer is 14. 8 in the AL and 6 in the NL. That is it. The game has changed with the two result outcome, HR and K. I think .275 is the new .300.

    https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/stats/player/batting/mlb/regular/all-pos/qualifiers/?sortcol=avg&sortdir=descending

    #164702
    jj-cf-stl
    Participant

    Context. Well done GS.

    #164703
    dac8b9
    Participant

    Another way of looking at this should we rebuild question is would you prefer to do a rebuild by choice or enter into one by force because you spent years over leveraging your assets to try and remain competitive?

    The reason we suck now is primarily because we have traded away valuable prospects to get Ozuna, Goldschmidt, and now Arenado to try and fix our offense and get back to the playoffs after missing three years in a row. We are paying the price for pillaging our prospects through those trades when we could have tried to fix our offense through free agency without giving up prospects. But Dewitt and Mo don’t want to spend what it takes to sign elite free agents, so they instead trade for guys. Now we don’t have enough good young players in the upper minors or on the big league club and the big veteran bats we traded for are either gone or are underperforming and getting older while making massive salaries. We will likely be disappointing the next couple years unless Dewitt spends wisely to give us much needed depth to replace what we’ve traded away. As it is, the next few years we will only be a few injuries away from the type of team we see now.

    #164707
    blingboy
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It is not just trades. We like to let guys walk as soon as we will have to pay them some money. Lynn is 7-3 with 2.14 ERA, 1.004 WHIP in 13 starts. Wong is hitting .281.

    #164708
    Euro Dandy
    Participant

    Free

    gscottar, your statement of .275 being the new .300 is about right on target. I guess for consistency, the Mendoza line for futility needs to be normalized to about .175. Doesn’t have the same ring to it, does it? Anyway, you’re welcome, Carp. 😉

    The following numbers give some justification for that. This year, MLB-wide batting average is .238. Compared to a few of our favorite years, here are the following for MLB-wide averages:

    1982 ==> .261
    2006 ==> .269
    2011 ==> .255
    2021 ==> .238

    Wooster’s larger point is valid in that our current team is well below par compared to MLB wide averages. Here are the Cardinals’ batting averages compared to MLB as a whole for those same years.

    1982 ==> .264 (+.003 and 9th out of 26 teams)
    2006 ==> .269 (even and 15th out of 30 teams)
    2011 ==> .273 (+.018 and 5th out of 30 teams)
    2021 ==> .226 (-.012 and 27th out of 30 teams)

    #164710
    Wooster
    Participant

    Free

    Good information on the decline in BA’s. Got me thinking about whats the cause of that? Stronger pitching, the shift or less talent coming up? Will no sticky on the ball lead to less movement on the ball and some increases in scoring?

    #164719
    GACard
    Participant

    Free

    It’s gotta be the increase in velocity and movement causing this. Maybe one or both are caused by the sticky substances but for some reason I don’t think the sticky substances make all the difference

    If you think back to 06, a pitcher throwing 100 with no movement out of the pen was a must see event on TV. Now the average starter can throw 97-98 when needed

    It’s a crazy proposal, but what if the mound needs to be moved back 6 inches

    #164721
    GACard
    Participant

    Free

    I don’t think we need a complete rebuild but a clean house in the dugout and some new faces running the front office might be nice, especially with all the money coming off the books

    #164726
    Steve60
    Participant

    Free

    IMO TX Card hit the nail on the head! Our current front office has put us in this terrible position by poorly evaluating talent and taxing for players past their primes!you can call it a total rebuild or a partial one but I don’t believe this current group led by Mo can fix these problems! They will get worse until we get rid of Mo and his group! When that happens I think the hope to contend again will start for me! I am afraid it is gonna get way worse before it gets better!

    #164733
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Like I mentioned in the game thread the Cardinals are almost never sellers. They just can’t bring themselves to do it because they are so afraid of losing ticket sales.

    Theoretically I think we should sell occasionally to at least help restock the farm system and get rid of some salary. The problem is that we currently don’t have any tradeable assets except for young players we would want to keep.

    We will probably stand pat again this year and hope for better results next season.

    #164736
    GACard
    Participant

    Free

    The best player we have to sell is Adam Wainwright, which would never happen. What else would anyone want

    To get Paul Dejongs contract gone we’d probably have to throw a prospect in right now

    #164738
    mudville
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I don’t know where to find the spin rate for a pitcher. But I’d be willing to bet that it’s considerably higher now than it was when he was with the Cardinals. If MLB does, in fact, get the sticky stuff out of the game, all of these pitchers who have become big stars will revert to what they were before the sticky stuff. Or am I missing something?

    #164743
    TexasCard
    Participant

    Free

    Looking back to 2019, at the end is when they should have fired Shildt after the locker room video incident instead of trading the young outfielder that filmed it. That was embarrassing as the leader of a ball club and was a precursor to what we are seeing today. We see sloppy and incompetent leadership on full display.

    Even if they had Bader and Flaherty this team is awful. I give them zero credit for making a sham expanded playoff last fall. In a full season they would have wilted just like they are doing now.

    And as I said days ago the front office should go as well. This hasn’t been a one season slide. It has been brewing for over five seasons now. The fiscal and talent evaluation mismanagement has caught up to them.

    This team is not pulling out of this tailspin. They are nothing like the 2011 team. Just go position by position, including the bench, and there aren’t many from this team that would start on that 2011 team and that includes Goldschmidt one of today’s supposed “star” players. And don’t even try to compare today’s on field management with that team’s as you will be rolling on the floor laughing out loud as there is no comparison. Just look at where Tony’s team is in the standing, and some questioned if the game had passed him by when he was hired during the offseason.

    It is past time for a house cleaning. The only question is, does Bill DeWitt have the gonads to do it immediately or at all. What we are witnessing is an embarrassment to this proud franchise. It is time.

    #164744
    ZTR
    Participant

    Free

    Batting Average is one thing, On Base Percentage is another and imo more important stat.

    How do these cards stack up against the league in OBP?

    #164746
    Bw52
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    IMO CMartinez,PoncedeLeon,Gant,Miller,LeBlanc are gone after the season.
    Wainwright and Molina retire after the season.
    Jose Rondon,Moroff,Carpenter,Nogowski,Justin Williams,Lane Thomas,Hurst all probable roster deletions via trade/DFA etc.

    I think Waddell gets a chance to show if his time at Memphis helped him .Guys like Helsley,Elledge,Whitley,Woodford,Quezada,Oviedo, A.Rondon etc keep learning the hard way at the MLB level.It will be a grit your teeth and grin thru this remainng season IMO.

    #164754
    bccran
    Participant

    Remember when the wheels inexplicably came off Ankiel’s wagon? The same has happened with DeJong. Not sure it’s salvageable.

    #164757
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    There’s still talent on this team and it’s not over yet, but it’s getting to be the danger zone. The bats aren’t helping but the pitching has really fallen apart due to injuries and ineffectiveness. Hopefully some regression will happen soon and a small hot streak can get going. Otherwise it’s gonna be a long season. I admit that I haven’t watched any games in quite a while and I’m not sure I will. A lot of that is due to other life stuff happening but the on field product isn’t exactly enticing either.

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