2019 closer/relievers thread – Miller + ?

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This topic contains 259 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by Avatar Bob Reed 10 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #75038
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    #75040
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    Goold weighs in.

    #75062
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    Ken Rosenthal notes the challenges facing any team looking for relief help in the free agent market by summarizing last winter.

    Almost all of the 10 relievers who signed the largest free-agent contracts — three with the Rockies, two with the Phillies — were disappointments. Cubs right-hander Steve Cishek, No. 11 on the list, provided perhaps the best value, posting a 2.18 ERA in 80 games.

    https://theathletic.com/675591/2018/11/26/rosenthal-where-will-cano-go-could-diamondbacks-deal-a-pair-and-whats-up-with-the-bullpen-market/

    #75067
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    thejager
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    i know Miller and Britton are the headliners here…i am just a bit too worried about their health for the contract they will demand…

    i’d rather target Will Smith from SF who came off a big injury going into 2017 and absolutely dominated, he’s a one year rental, which is good and bad depending, he can close and has proven he is over his big injury

    healthy and effective Miller and Britton are good, but are either of them either of those things? we got burnt hard on Holland last year, and it was only a one year deal, Cecil is what we have seen, and Gregerson was supposed to be healthy last year too

    i really am not excited about FA injured relievers

    trade for Rogers and Smith…they are attainable trade targets that wont break the farm bank, Gyorko and JMart are good options to see if we can include

    go all in no puke point line on Harper

    Maybe we can talk the M’s into swapping contracts of Fowler and Cano. Cano an play 1b or 3b. his contract is high but he is still productive. OR try the swapping contracts using Seager, we come out on the lesser with the extra year guaranteed so we lose out, but we get a solid defender with big power even with less contact…that is useful

    OR we can try to use some of our bigger prospects (if necessary) to target a guy like Lamb

    I know they have to look at the big name money only Free agents… but even among them i almost would rather target Sipp than Britton or Miller if we have to go that route

    #75069
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    gscottar
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    I tend to agree jager. Miller and Britton would have been great a couple of years ago but I think I would pass on them now. Too much uncertainty for what will undoubtedly be big money for a reliever. I’m not saying we have all the answers internally, because we don’t, but there are cheaper and more reliable options out there. Brad Hand would have been perfect for us but that ship has probably sailed unless we overwhelm Cleveland with an offer.

    I’d be fine with Rogers and a few others that have been mentioned on here.

    #75125
    jj-cf-stl
    jj-cf-stl
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    Id be fine w/Gomber as the primary situational LHP in the pen, Robbie Ray in the rotation.

    Gomber eventually to wind up in the rotation. I think Gomber lost his wiffle ball curve in Sept due to fatigue.

    #76259
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    One of the two stated priorities now that the Goldschmidt trade is done is left-handed relief. Where do you see the Cards going with the pen?

    #76273
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    gscottar
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    Rogers and Ottavino would be great.

    If we go for one of the high priced LH relievers I would go for Britton over Miller.

    #76284
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    Cardinals2016
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    According to Goold, the Cardinals still don’t believe in investing heavily in relievers.

    So, veterans that can be signed to cheap deals: Oliver Perez (age 37, 1.39 ERA in 2018; 4.39 career ERA) & Tony Sipp (age 35, 1.86 ERA in 2018; 3.67 career ERA)

    Non-tendered candidates: Luis Avilan (age 29, 3.77 ERA in 2018; 3.09 career ERA), Xavier Cedeno (age 32, 2.43 ERA in 2018; 3.69 career ERA) & Dan Jennings (age 31, 3.22 ERA in 2018, 2.96 career ERA)

    I would start with Avilan and Jennings.

    #76330
    jj-cf-stl
    jj-cf-stl
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    Joakim Soria at 1/10mil is where i see the FO going. They know they have Gomber, and Wainwright blocks both he and Gant from the opening day rotation (if healthy).

    Then there’s the Cecil contract, Webb was serviceable and out of options Shreve wasn’t non-tendered. I guess I’m not buying the reports of stl targeting a LH reliever, with four on the roster.

    My wish list has Robertson at 3/33mil

    #76332
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    CariocaCardinal
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    Robertson is also (by far) my number one target for a FA reliever.

    #76337
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    Bob Reed
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    No free agent relievers for me, please. Not unless it’s a Final Boss type of guy — someone relatively unknown, and cheap as the Dollar Store. I say go big for Kikuchi, though, as he could relieve or start in 2019, then slide into the rotation for the remaining years of his contract after Mikolas & Wacha depart.

    A 2020 rotation of Carlos Martinez, Jack Flaherty, Alex Reyes, Yusei Kikuchi, and Dakota Hudson sounds pretty good to me. Gant and Gomber for the safety net.

    Anyway, an alternative would be to package Jose Martinez and a good-not-great prospect to the Twins for overpaid backup backstop Castro (there’s your lefty bench bat, if you have to have one) plus solid southpaw Taylor Rogers for the pen. Twins get salary relief, a fun fun cheap cheap top 3 DH, and a prospect. Cards get a bench guy that Shildt might actually play 4 or 5 times a month, instead of burning Yadi out by mid-August.

    If not Rogers, maybe Andrew Chafin. If not him, perhaps Caleb Frare. I don’t even care of the bullpen is nothing but righties, as long as they can get both lefty and righty batters out. But whatever happens, let’s get relievers who are IN their primes this winter, and not multiple years past it. Let’s learn from the past.

    #76389
    stlcard25
    stlcard25
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    More from incarcerated Bob…

    #76398
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    bccran
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    Reyes
    Hicks
    Hudson
    Gant
    Brebbia
    Ponce
    Gomber (L)
    Leone
    Gallegos
    Shreve (L)

    Isn’t this enough to make a decent pen? My HO predictions are a strong comeback by Leone and a surprising good performance by Gallegos.

    #76399
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    Cardinals2016
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    plus solid southpaw Taylor Rogers for the pen.

    I am curious why people think Taylor Rogers is available in any trade for JMart. Does anybody remember the Craig Kimbrel trade? Aroldis Chapman? Andrew Miller?

    Since Minnesota is trying to win a winnable division, I would think Jose LeClerc from the Texas Rangers would be more available, as the Rangers have no chance at winning their division.

    #76405
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    MagnoliaCardFan
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    After 5 minutes (max) of thought, ….I’d like to see Daniel Poncedeleon get a look as a late-inning reliever. Two reasons: (1) our glut of pitchers in his category and (2), perhaps more importantly, I think he’s got the IT/RIGHT-STUFF factor between his ears.

    #76457
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    bccran
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    Ponce is a bulldog in the mold of Flaherty. Both intensively competitive.

    An interesting discussion on this thread might be which young talented starters should be considered for a relief role and which
    should be stretched out and starting at Memphis for starter depth.

    Flaherty (MLB rotation)
    Reyes (starter or pen?)
    Ponce
    Gant
    Gomber
    Hudson
    Helsley
    Ellis
    Woodford

    #76459
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    PugsleyAddams
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    Right on, Cranny! Flaherty, Ponce and Brebbia all appear to be first class bulldogs! Now we just need two more. Bader has all the markings of a bulldog, but I’m not sure if he’s all the way there just yet. Five bonifide bulldogs will generally win you a title.

    #76462
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    Cardinals27
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    Will all of our starting pitchers, let’s not redo 2017-18 offseason. Out of the 3 relievers we signed, we got .8 out of 3. I know the crystal ball doesn’t always work on bullpeners, but let’s make some offers to the free agents who we decide on, and get on with it. I would pay a premium for As far as trades go, Tit has to be Taylor Rogers. LOts of control, and a true shut down lefty. Strickland would be other choice, and failing to sign him, Parker Kelly. These last 2 I was very surprised to see them non tendered.

    Let’s not wait until all the good relievers have signed. I think we’d have a very good chance at most anyone because of a chance to close games.

    All that being said, next week should be a lot of fun. (Fingers crossed)

    #76463
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    CariocaCardinal
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    I would look at Neshek as a LOOGY. Phils are said to be wanting to move him. Only negative is one year of control. His age doesnt seem to be an issue.

    #76477
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    Bob Reed
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    “I am curious why people think Taylor Rogers is available in any trade for JMart. Does anybody remember the Craig Kimbrel trade? Aroldis Chapman? Andrew Miller?”

    Speaking just for myself, I suggested taking a bad contract off of the Twins’ hands, and also including a prospect in the trade. And Jose Martinez has an MLB lifetime 130 wRC+, and makes no money. I am curious why so many people seem to think he has limited appeal as a DH.

    Also, Taylor Rogers has very nearly none of the prestige that Kimbrel or Chapman or Miller possessed when they were traded. Because he’s not a closer, because he doesn’t get a ton of strikeouts, because he lacks a lengthy track record of MLB dominance, because he was never a big prospect and isn’t young now, and finally, well, maybe he’s a little undervalued partly because he’s a Minnesota Twin. Hasn’t performed on the “big stage” so to speak.

    “Since Minnesota is trying to win a winnable division…”

    If Minnesota won’t trade, if they’re really trying to win their division (or at least take a shot at the wildcard) I think they’re making a big mistake, but that’s obviously their choice.

    As for the A.L. Central being “winnable,” I don’t know what to say to this. I can only assume that you’re kidding. Cleveland will win that division by 15-20 games, if not more. They would have done so in 2018, but were bad in extra innings/one-run games, where there’s a significant element of luck. The Injuns outscored their opponents by 170 runs in 2018, and they have a great multi-superstar core to fill in around. They will run roughshod over that division for at least the next two years.

    Minny might win 86-88 games if Buxton suddenly actualizes and a few other things go right. And almost nothing goes wrong.

    #76478
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    Bob Reed
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    Reyes
    Hicks
    Hudson
    Gant
    Brebbia
    Ponce
    Gomber (L)
    Leone
    Gallegos
    Shreve (L)
    Isn’t this enough to make a decent pen?”

    I’m partial to homegrown guys, but unfortunately I think it isn’t, cranny. I think it would very likely be a repeat of 2018, where the club scrambles all year to try and figure out who really belongs in what role — and in the meantime, games are being lost late. It’s okay to scramble a little, maybe for the first couple of months. But not all year.

    On top of which, they might need Gant, or Ponce, or Hudson, or Gomber, to make spot starts. In fact, we can be pretty sure that at least one or two of them will have to do so at some point. The potential needs of the rotation are definitely a factor in all this.

    But even if all of those swingman types stay in the bullpen all season, for me that hypothetical pen above reads like a list of guys who should battle for the 6th/7th inning role. It has nobody in it — except possibly Brebbia — who has pitched well in more than one MLB season. (And I’m frankly reluctant to count Brebbia, since his MLB single-season inning totals are relatively modest, at 52 and 51.)

    I like Brebbia, I like him for middle relief. He could be solid in that role going forward. But if there is any chance that John Brebbia is the best relief pitcher on your roster, you are in terrible trouble. And I believe that is where the Cards are right now.

    Sorry to be such a sourpuss, cranny. And on a Friday no less.

    #76480
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    Cardinals2016
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    I am curious why so many people seem to think he has limited appeal as a DH.

    Oh, he has value. But there are only about 3 teams that need a DH that don’t have one. And you can get a DH for a few million bucks.

    Good relievers > DH

    If Minnesota won’t trade, if they’re really trying to win their division (or at least take a shot at the wildcard) I think they’re making a big mistake, but that’s obviously their choice.

    I’m sure they’re willing to trade. I just don’t think they’re going to trade one of their most valuable relievers for a DH while trying to win the division. And if they are going to trade, it will probably be prospects for MLB players. No need to weaken the MLB team in one area to improve it in another.

    They’ve also openly stated they will be wading into free agent waters. Have you seen their payroll after this year? $0

    Between MLB TV revenue, the pooling of 31% of local TV revenues, MLB merchandise/media, and small market revenues, every team has at least $100 million. That is before they produce any revenue themselves.

    If you were managing a team, would you trade one of your most valuable relievers for a DH when you can get a DH for under $5 million?

    • This reply was modified 11 months, 2 weeks ago by Avatar Cardinals2016.
    #76483
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    Cardinals27
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    If Jmart and apitcher isn’t enough, I would trade Gyorko for Rogers. Maybe the Twins kick in a prospect.

    #76489
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    Bob Reed
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    “Oh, he (Jose Martinez) has value. But there are only about 3 teams that need a DH that don’t have one. And you can get a DH for a few million bucks.
    Good relievers > DH”

    Prior to the 2017 season the Indians gave 34-year-old DH Edwin Encarnacion a 3-year deal for $60M coming off a 134 OPS+ season. Jose Martinez has a lifetime 128 OPS+. And he’s a long way from 34, and he makes no dough.

    If an A.L. team doesn’t see him as a terrific opportunity, then they’re nuts. And maybe they are, I don’t know. But Jose at his current batting line as a 150 games DH is much more valuable than 95-99% of even the good MLB relievers.

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