DeJong extension

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  • #45468
    Bw52
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    It should be obvious to everyone that the management/FO has a certain way they are going to do business and they are sticking to that style.Choosing to develop players internally instead of handing out big dollar Free agent contracts like popcorn.Cards use their metrics to choose who to sign when they do sign someone and putting the emphasis on player development in the farm system seems to be the way it will be.The results have not been bad no matter what the gloom and doom bunch rants daily.As a long time fan (over 50 years) i would love to have a All-star studded lineup of big name players but the reality is that this is not NY or LA or Boston etc;.Cards choose to use the farm system development augmented with a few complimentary FA signings and trades to keep the team in contention every year.I dont see how anyone can complain about having a team that is in contention yearly.THis is not sexy or fancy and doesnt get the big headlines but it seems to be working because the team is in contention for the playoffs every year.I won`t knock that.

    #45473
    Cardinals2016
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    Free

    It is obvious to everyone how the Cardinals operate.

    How many years do they have to miss the playoffs before they decide it’s time for a change?

    We all saw the Cubs coming from a mile away. The front office was oblivious.

    The Cardinals have now made TWO trades of multiple prospects for a star player since Mozeliak took over. Two in 11 years. You don’t have to overpay in free agency if you are willing to make trades. The Cardinals are unwilling to make trades.

    Every year, the GM should be saying, “How can I upgrade the roster?” Do you think Gregorson and Norris were the best free agent relief pitchers available to the Cardinals this year? Are they upgrades over Rosenthal and Oh? Would Nicasio and Reed have been better? Could the Cardinals have afforded Nicasio and Reed? Did those two sign for outlandish contracts?

    Every year, we hear the Cardinals boast about how they have “payroll flexibility” or “payroll muscle”. Yet, it always goes unused.

    I am the lone person on here that thinks the Cardinals thoroughly botched this offseason, because they had a once in a lifetime opportunity to use their payroll muscle and build a team that would put fear into every other team out there. Don’t try to sell Stanton on coming here if he is the only upgrade to a team that missed the playoffs. Bring Ozuna & Gordon as part of the Stanton deal (especially since Stanton said the only thing missing in Miami was one or two pitchers). Increase payroll over last year and have a lineup featuring both Ozuna & Stanton. If you have to trade Tommy Pham and his league minimum salary to pull it off, so be it. If you have to assume an extra $6 million per year to take on Gordon’s contract by trading Wong, so be it. If you have to take on Zeigler’s contract to bring back Barraclough or acquire Steckenrider – do it.

    Instead of building a WS contender, we built a wild card contender, with a bullpen that is arguably worse than last year’s.

    This was a chance to take on a lot of short term salaries (and one potentially long term salary) and noticeably improve the club, but the front office has no vision. So, at the trade deadline this year, they will once again acquire a reliever as they make their “push” for the wild card.

    Fabulous.

    And by the way, they walked away from an Ozuna trade last offseason so they could sign Fowler for 5 years/$82.5 million one year after his best offer as 3 years/$33 million. All the things Fowler was supposed to bring to the table, are what Ozuna actually is bringing to the table. Fowler, it was reported by his best buddy in the reporting world, was usually last one in, first one out. But hey, give the Cardinals credit for admitting a mistake a year later.
    Ozuna is all smiles

    #45475
    Bw52
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    Did the Cards makes offers to Nicasio and Reed? I think so.You cant force the players to sign the deals offered can you?Stanton is the one who didnt want to come to Stlouis or did you forget that.Cards offered best deal to miami but Stanton nixed coming to Cardinals.You can`t blame FO for that.
    Cards DID MAKE THE OZUNA TRADE improving the offense.Cards did sign a extra starting pitcher (Mikolas who several teams wanted including the freaking Cubwads) .Cards did sign Norris and Gregorson 2 guys who have closing experience and Norris was good last season until injured and a couple of bad outings skewed his stats.Cards did trade Grichuk for a young bullpen guy who is coming into his own(Leone.Grichuk was going to be a 4th OF and spot starter.Cards did trade Piscotty for 2 good young INF prospects (Munoz and Schrock).Cards also got Tyler ONeill for Marco Gonzalez who was not going to do much in STLOuis ( ONeill is a top 100 prospect in MLB).

    #45480
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Good comment Cards’16. I’m with you on 95% of what you stated.

    #45502
    gscottar
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    Brian, No I haven’t heard the front office state that we needed to satisfy the four objectives that I laid out nor would I expect them to. They did however tacitly acknowledge that the rotation and bullpen needed help by the additions they made. I just think those additions were too timid therefore I refuse to check them off of MY to do list.

    Cardinals2016, I think your post is spot on except when you say that you are the only one on this board who thinks the Cardinals botched this offseason. I beg to differ.

    For those who cite the achievements of the Cardinal blueprint for success you are absolutely correct. We have been in numerous World Series, NLCS, and NLDS under this ownership and front office. They have a sterling record.

    However, things are moving in a different direction and we must acknowledge it. For years and years the Cardinals could count on having more resources than the Pirates, Reds, Brewers, and Astros. One of them might rise up on occasion but couldn’t sustain it. The Cubs have always had resources but usually were ran by bumbling idiots. They too might rise up on occasion but couldn’t sustain it.

    All of that changed the day Theo Epstein landed in Chicago. The Cubs now have the vast resources AND the brainpower to go with it. It is obviously a devastating combination. Meanwhile, the Cardinals are still operating like it is 2013. Well it isn’t 2013 anymore. This is a new day. The Cardinals can either adapt or they can fight for 2nd place every year. It is that simple.

    Now the Cubs might have a day of reckoning eventually when their young all stars reach free agency but that is at least four years away. So what are we supposed to do the next four years? Just grin and bear it and hope we can scratch out a wild card spot? That just doesn’t seem like how a proud and iconic franchise with vast resources should operate. But that is just my opinion I suppose.

    #45531
    forsch31
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    Free

    I think the single most damaging event effecting the separation between the Cardinals and the Cubs was the death of Oscar Taveras. That event shifted the way the Cardinals could use their assets to build the team.

    I also feel that, despite many posters’ thoughts that we had the prospects to trade in the last 2-3 off-seasons, until now, they weren’t developed enough to have a lot of value. Sure, we could make a trade but it would have devastated our minors. Then, in a couple of more years, we would be back in the same position of not being able to keep up with the Cubs. The posters would be complaining then instead of now.

    I have still not heard of who these difference makers we should of acquired are except Ozuna, Reed and Nicasio. I don’t recall any trade a year ago for Ozuna that the Cardinals walked away from. I also don’t know whether or not the Cardinals made offers to Reed and Nicasio. I do know that the Cardinals now have Ozuna and a pretty good bullpen.

    #45534
    gscottar
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    Losing Taveras was a tragedy in many ways. Obviously the loss of a human life is terrible and his loss on the field has had many negative impacts. We had to give up Shelby Miller to get Heyward then we did not re-sign Heyward. We then counted on Piscotty and Grichuk to take over his spot but neither could do it. So yes losing Taveras was very bad, however, I don’t think it was the only reason we fell behind the Cubs. I suspect we would still be trying to catch them if he were here.

    We have been sitting on our dry powder for many years. We will eventually have to use it or just continue to watch the Cubs clinch the division on our home field.

    #45543
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

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    I have trouble when people assert “the front office has no vision,” when what you really mean is that “my vision is different from theirs”.

    #45556
    mudville
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    Here’s mudville’s vision… After seeing how Mikolas pitched the other day, and how Weaver pitched yesterday, and how the bullpen pitchers who will actually be in our bullpen have been getting outs, plus the ‘stacked’ lineup that we have, plus Reyes and Flaherty waiting in the wings, I think the Cardinals will not only make it to the postseason, but they will go deep in the postseason.

    #45557
    NJ315
    Participant

    All that from spring training performances so far? Then look into the “stacked” lineup OPS:

    Fowler .542
    Pham .775
    Martinez .909
    Ozuna .540
    DeJong .921
    Molina .659
    Gyorko .269
    Wong .422

    Other that DeJong and Martinez not so “stacked”

    #45562
    gscottar
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    I have trouble when people assert “the front office has no vision,” when what you really mean is that “my vision is different from theirs”.

    I’m not sure how you extrapolated that out of what I said. If I insinuated anything it is that the front office has a vision but it is outdated and needs to be modified. I also included the disclaimer at the end that all of that was my opinion. If we need to begin every post with “this is my opinion” then let us know and I will be happy to oblige. I also would welcome comments from anyone rebutting my opinion. This is a message board after all. Ideas should be exchanged.

    #45566
    NJ315
    Participant

    My opinion is that I agree with gscottar.

    #45567
    Bw52
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    I think its pretty obvious that the Cards FO/Management has decided on the model they will use.Internal Player development with some smart trades added in and a complimentaryy Free agent signing or two .As for the Cubs being smarter (Theo) i dont buy that line of thinking.I am still waiting for people to convince me that THEO is a genius.(When has he built anything without the benefit of a big wallet behind him?As for Cubbies having a period of contending the odds are that after sucking for many years you ought to get lucky sometimes.Tanking didn`t hurt either.After all those top picks they finally got lucky and big checkbook helped also.
    I see nothing wrongwith being a steady yearly contender by going the route the Cards are going.It might not be cool or sexy enough for many instant gratification fans (younger) but i prefer a team being in contention yearly instead of boom or bust.I remember too many poor Cards teams from the 70s and how the Cards teams fell badly after 1964 WS (1965) rebounded in 67-68 and then barely sniffed contention in the 70s.

    #45568
    gscottar
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    BW52, I don’t disagree with the philosophy of being an annual contender instead of riding the boom/bust roller coaster but I’m still trying to figure out how exactly we plan to overtake the Cubs. I don’t think being a 90 win team will do it because their boom cycle isn’t going to bust anytime soon. Is our strategy just to ride out the storm and wait for the Cubs to suck again?

    #45570
    mudville
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    2017 OPS for 2018 starting lineup:

    Fowler.851
    Maybe not so stacked based on ST stats. But here’s the 2017 year end OPS for projected starting lineups –

    Pham.931 Cubs Zobrist.693
    Jose Martinez.909 Bryant.915
    Ozuna.924 Rizzo.899
    DeJong.857 Contreras.855
    Molina.751 Schwarber.782
    Gyorko.734 Heyward.715
    Wong.788 Almora.782

    That looks pretty stacked to me. BTW, my ‘stacked’ comment was a quote from a comment made by MM.

    #45573
    NJ315
    Participant

    Yes please look back not forward because the spring hitting stats are downright ugly. Because if you sing the praises of Weaver’s and Mikolas spring performance then to be fair let’s look at the offense:

    26th in team average: .242

    28th in on-base percentage: .317

    29th in slugging percentage: .383

    28th in OPS: 700

    25th in runs scored: 69

    #45575
    mudville
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    Mikolas was a different pitcher the last time out. If he continues to improve, he could be as good as promised by the FO. Weaver is too new to really count on. But he’s been very impressive so far. Then, there’s Reyes and Flaherty just waiting for their time. The expected regulars for the bullpen have been very impressive also. There is really little reason to expect the starting lineup to be worse than they have been.

    #45587
    NJ315
    Participant

    My point is you keep looking at the good and praising it but when it comes to the bad then it is an anomaly. I think that if the offense won’t be as bad as it looks well maybe the pitching won’t be as good as you say. You can’t have it both ways.

    #45605
    mudville
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    I’m aware of most of the unknowns. I like to take satisfaction in the little things and the possibilities that come out of those little things, rather than worry about whether we’re going to win the World Series all season long.

    #45609
    NJ315
    Participant

    Who is talking world series, expectations , or unknowns? The point is if you make assumptions based on good spring training results why is the opposite not true?

    #45611
    Nathan Leopold Jr.
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    I appreciate your approach, Mudville. I’m quite the opposite. The WS is the only thing for me. If they don’t win the WS then the season is a waste. Just my position.

    #45612
    CariocaCardinal
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    Why be a fan then Nate? With that attitude you are only going to have near continual disappointment.

    #45613
    mudville
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    The assumptions are not based entirely on spring training results. Weaver was pretty good last year, and Mikolas was hyped pretty highly by our front office. You have to think they had a reason for it. Reyes and Flaherty are beginners, but we’ve seen what they can do. The questions that remains is whether they can do it consistently. With all of the glowing reports on Pham’s offseason, IMO, you have to think he will get better. Same goes for Wong. Gyorko lost some weight and has hit 30 HR’s as recently as 2016. Jose Martinez has always been able to hit. Fowler had an OPS of .851 last year. Then there’s Ozuna. And besides all of that, none of the expected bullpen pitchers have disappointed so far plus Mayers, Gant, and Lucas seem to be emerging. There’s plenty of room for optimism for the upcoming season without even considering all of the unproductive, if not counterproductive players, that we’ve let go of. Just my position.

    #45615
    NJ315
    Participant

    Sorry you pointed to spring training recent results to make your point if not for that I would have never questioned your opinion.

    #45623
    gscottar
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    My position is we must finish higher than the Cubs. I can live with anything else at this point.

Viewing 25 posts - 76 through 100 (of 146 total)
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