Cubs thread

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  • #147577
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Theo Nathaniel Epstein is extremely adept at jumping off floundering ships.

    Ya gotta be thinking where he’ll surface this time around.

    #147578
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Cubs fans certainly won’t turn down the title he won, but he surely leaves the cupboard fairly bare. I’m not sad that the Cubs may be bad for the next 3-5 years, though.

    #147580
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Will this change what course the Card’s FO will take in ’21? Can we actually win the division with what we have and with little dough to spend on improving? The same could be the thinking in the Reds and Brewers upstairs offices. Heck the Bucco’s FO will be looking at this development with some high hopes.

    #147581
    Avatargscottar
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    I would pump the brakes on thinking the Cubs are about to collapse. While it is true they have underachieved and Epstein probably figures they aren’t going to be a serious World Series contender next year they will always be a contender for the NLC because they know their four division rivals will never outspend them.

    This “rebuild “ is not going to be like 2013 and 2014.

    #147585
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    gscottar…while they won’t be in true tanking territory, they have poor pitching and their hitters are going to be expensive, aging or both. The farm system is quite weak. I get that the Cubs are a bit of a boogeyman for some Cards fans, but taking the name off the team, you wouldn’t expect them to be a serious title contender for several years, nor will they be free of some of their dead weight to make upgrades in the meantime.

    I think St Louis is in massively better shape the next 3-5 years than Chicago and barring horrid luck for St Louis and great luck for Chicago, I don’t see that changing.

    #147586
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    #147587
    Avatargscottar
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    stl25 wrote:

    you wouldn’t expect them to be a serious title contender for several years, nor will they be free of some of their dead weight to make upgrades in the meantime.

    When you are willing to have a top 5 payroll regularly (at least during non covid times) you are probably going to be a contender. Like has been said about the Yankees and Dodgers, the Cubs have the ability to paper over some mistakes if they want to.

    I will grant you that their farm system is weak and their pitching depth is limited (thanks Theo) but I suspect they will be in the hunt for the NLC title most every year because they have more financial resources than anyone else in the division.

    #147589
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    If Theo was concerned about others, he would have stayed on and just donated his salary to those in need. This sainthood proclamation by Morosi is laughable. I thought more of him than this thinly-veiled PR release indicates. The proof will be if the team hires back the 100’s they have already laid off.

    P.S. The Ricketts family is worth $2.3 billion.

    #147619
    Avatarbccran
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    I wouldn’t underestimate Jed Hoyer. Very capable, great guy, and respected by GMs around the league.

    #147629
    Avatargscottar
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    This is from an ESPN article.

    Now that Theo Epstein has stepped down, what do you expect to see from the Cubs the rest of this offseason?

    David Schoenfield: How about a “soft” rebuild? Given that many organizations might be dealing with major financial stresses, trading high-salaried players might not be easy. But consider as well that the National League Central is … well, it’s very winnable. The Cubs actually won the division in 2020. The Cincinnati Reds are going to lose Trevor Bauer. The St. Louis Cardinals need to find an offense. The Milwaukee Brewers are unlikely to make any big additions and could trade Josh Hader. If they play a 162-game season in 2021, it might take only 85 victories to win the division. The Cubs could do a partial teardown and still compete.

    #147640
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    For many, the last point overshadows all the others.

    #147644
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Considering that tweet Brian shared included the years the Cubs were purposely tanking, this following tweet sheds more light on how the Cards and Cubs compared during the years they both were actually to win.

    On a personal note it’s good to be back on TCN after dealing with Covid. I’ve visited the page several times when I was recovering but didn’t feel up to posting anything.

    #147645
    Avatarbccran
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    Welcome back, BHC! Sorry you had to go through that. Very glad you’re feeling better.

    #147646
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Welcome back, BHC!

    Now that you’ve gotten your nice word about the Cubs in, we’ll expect nothing but steely cold hatred toward them the rest of your time here. Lol

    #147649
    BlackHillsCardBlackHillsCard
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    Thanks guys. I’m dealing with a cough and haven’t been able to smell anything for about a week and a half except for phantom smells of burning wood. Rest assured, though, my cold hard hatred of the Cubs has never subsided.

    #147650
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    BHC…. get some good old-fashioned rest. Keep your strength up and get better soon.

    #147653
    Avatarmspaid
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    The six year comparison is definitely more representative of where the two franchises are. Thanks BHC and continue to get better.

    #147656
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Of course the obvious answer to Father Time’s question is that Theo’s record with the Cubs is Theo’s FULL record – one cannot just cherry pick the good parts when reviewing his time in the job.

    The two franchises took very different routes. The Cubs were close to bottom anyway, so they tanked to get to the top – but stayed only very briefly. The Cardinals take a steadier approach – without the extremes.

    Which would you prefer as a fan?

    #147657
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    BHC, hoping you will have no lingering concerns with your health and are back to normal soon.

    #147681
    Avatargscottar
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    Glad you are back BHC. I too think it is more accurate to compare the Cubs and Cardinals from 2015 on because if Theo had tried to win his first couple of years in Chicago he never would have won as much the last six years. Since 2015 the Cubs have been the better team but it also true that they did not achieve the dynasty they thought they were going build. They underperformed. Going forward I see the teams on equal footing. The Cardinals have a better farm system but the Cubs have more money.

    And for what it is worth I am in the minority of Cardinal fans who would not care if we recalibrated once in awhile and took it on the chin for a year or two in order to build a world series contender. This annual pursuit to build an 88 win team drives me crazy.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by Avatargscottar.
    #147684
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    The original post was very clear that it was measuring the Theo Era. I don’t get the willingness to pretend the bad years are not part of his record and legacy, too.

    #147685
    Avatargscottar
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    I view it differently because the Cubs were deliberately trying to lose in order to win big later. I think it comes down to whether a person considers tanking as a legitimate team building process or not.

    #147686
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    I believe tanking is a legitimate process or it would have been outlawed. What I don’t believe is that those losses can somehow be excused. The games and the seasons all count the same.

    You start making those judgement calls and you immediately head down a slippery slope. How heavy of a tank does a team have to make to get a mulligan? How about a partial tank? How many years are excused to tank before it is deemed a failure (because not every tank job works)? Do they only get this “tanking credit” if they manage to win a World Series, etc?

    P.S. The Cubs had already slogged through two bad years before Theo was hired. I submit that the fans were willing to stomach three more years of heavy losses in part because they were so used to losing already. There were no winning expectations at that time as there are now. A three-year tank in Chicago now would not go down so easy, I bet…

    #147687
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    #147688
    Avatar1964cards
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    I am with you Brian … all games in the era count.

    Yes, Theo’s Cubs won a World Series. However, they purposely tanked to obtain the talent and that needs to be built into the final tally. Additionally, the group assembled did not become the dynasty they were projected to be.

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