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Well,I have to say I thought the Cardinals had some areas of concern but after reading the posts on this page I can see my fears were unfounded. This team is ready to win the World Series. I can’t wait.
Of course there are concerns! There are always concerns. Always some tweak that could make the team a little bit better. All I’m saying is that the Cardinals brass has done a great job of developing and trading for players to make this team in 2023 a fantastic looking team that has a good shot at a World Series. Pretty much no team ever has a better than 50% shot at winning the WS. Even 25% would be incredible. But 50% or better seems to be the standard that fans want to hold the Cardinals to as they forget about the 20 other teams that are doing their best to also win a championship. We can’t just buy any player we want or trade for any player we want. Some of those players want to go to a certain city or be in a certain situation. Some players have good stats but aren’t good teammates and we don’t want them. Some teams value one team’s prospects better than ours. And sometimes it’s just not worth the trade ask because it makes the team worse in the long run. And the Cardinals truly are a team that cares about the long run. They want a chance to win every single year. And they never go all in to try to just win this year and say screw the future. And I love that about them. Consistency is a valuable trait. And I guess that’s what the topic of the thread is about. Except that I think consistently good is a better description that conservative. They weren’t conservative when they traded for Ozuna or Goldschmidt or Arenado (or extended Goldschmidt). They were trying to be consistently good in every case. Today, so many people want instant gratification. But I personally love the Cardinals approach of consistently good and I’m glad we’re not letting AJ Preller or Dave Dombrowski run our long-term prospects into the ground. This is the Cardinal Way. It’s what this team is about and has been about for at least the Dewitt era. This is the legacy that George Kissel instilled upon the organization while he shaped its culture for all those years in the minors. And I’m glad to be a fan. Especially in 2023.
BW…If you double check, you’ll see that Bryce Harper was awarded the NL MVP two years ago. The year before that it was Freddie Freeman, but I disregard the ’20 season. I’m reasonably certain you already know who was named NL MVP in ’22, so I won’t mention him. Tatis Jr. has never finished higher than 3rd in the NL MVP voting. Best I can tell, his two most noteworthy career accomplishments consist of leaning a motorcycle at an angle to the extent in which he not only skint-up the lusterous paint on the machine itself, but also the bone in his wrist. Additionally, he was also found to be filling his tank with a grade of fuel that exceeds the octane limits of fair play. I’d also like to emphasize that there’s no evidence that the aforementioned illegal grade of fuel was ever placed in the tank of the motorcycle…I will acknowledge that he did manage to win a NL HR title when he tatered-up 42 times during the ’21 season and that’s pretty good, but it reamins to be seen how he’ll perform while running on the same fuel as those he’s competing against. In any event, I’m entirely satisfied that he’s not a member of the Cardinal’s projected ’23 line-up and I’ll take that Redbird line-up over the remainder of those in the NL.
Brian – Why are you being consistent in your negativity toward the organization you cover so thoroughly? It’s out of character. Not like you.
One man’s negativity is another man’s realism. (Or another man’s positivity is… ) I already wrote that I can see the team winning 93 games and the division again. However, I don’t believe they are legitimate World Series contenders. I am not alone in that view. A number of outside observers view it similarly. Since you made it personal, I don’t carry water for anyone. I say what I believe and I explain why thoroughly. You have a right to disagree but scolding is inappropriate.
You are right, 1tough. I misread Tatis’ stats. He came in third in the MVP 2021 as you noted, but he was the NL home run champ as we both said. Getting back to the specific discussion, you asked what he has done the last couple of seasons, which includes 2021. Whether first or third in the MVP, he was really good. Tatis is one of four very good players in the Padres offense. That is why I named them as having perhaps the best offense in the NL in 2023. Only time will tell.
As of right now, the Cards are overwhelming favorites to win the division (20/23 odds). However, they are 28/1 to win The World Series. That is 12th-best in MLB and sixth in the NL.
Last year at this time, they were 22/1 to win the World Series. This is another illustration of the trend to which I have referred.
https://www.betonline.ag/sportsbook/futures-and-props/mlb-futures/world-series
Some of us feel the Cardinals have a very strong lineup and a chance to go all the way. Instead of tanking which would result in some loss seasons, they hung in there and gave us exciting, playoff seasons as they were slowly building a team that could go deep into October. They stayed away from high risk FAs who could skew payroll and limit their flexibility in the future. Now, they want to see what they have before making any additional moves. If moves do need to be made, October is 2/3 of a year away. Plenty of time. As was stated by Mo.
BenFred: After Cardinals shut down offseason, rival Cubs gained ground https://t.co/BLrEKlMU55
— STLToday Sports News (@STL_SportsNews) January 24, 2023
I don’t think you just get to blanket the conversation with “they’re conservative, it’s a conservative area, I think they’re good enough so there” and not expect pushback.
The two men primarily responsible for the Cardinals’ success this century (Pujols and Luhnow) are nowhere to be found. The white knight isn’t coming in to save them from within the system. That’s a fact. 93 wins and losing in the division series may be acceptable to some, but some of us would like to see a little more urgency on occasion.
Like bc, I think the offense could be pretty good. I’m excited to see the prospects sort themselves out and to see if O’Neill, Carlson and company can regain the heights they achieved previously. Like jj, Brian and some others…the staff has the ability to harpoon it all with a few poorly timed injuries or regression/lack of progression.
I’d say the Cards have nigh unto 0 chance to win the World Series as currently constructed. If some fans are content with that, more power to them. Others realize that a couple of true #1/2 starters would go a long way when it comes to facing other aces in October (and before it comes up, I don’t care that Quintana and Mikolas pitched well against Philadelphia. They’re not #1s and never will be again, and if facing Nola and Wheeler, Verlander and Scherzer, etc would be well under .500 pitchers).
BW…Yeah, he was pretty good, but as I mentioned, it remains to be seen if he can continue to perform without the unfair advantage of an illegal fuel additive. Furthermore, we won’t know until around the latter portion of May when he’ll once again be allowed onto the field of play. Additionally, by his own admission, he seems to be susceptible to the debilitating condition known as ringworm…At any rate, the uncertainty surrounding Tatis Jr. may be the primary reason the Padres deemed it neccessary to secure the services of another SS.
I think I’m with you 1toughdominican. While San Diego certainly has a great shot too, I’m going to say the Cardinals score the most runs in the NL this year.
I am not sure the Cards will be in top 3 in the NL in runs alone…..
Regarding the purported 28/1 odds of the Redbirds winning the ’23 WS, simple arithmetic proves that those odds are clearly way off the mark. You really don’t even need a pencil and scrap of paper to calculate that since they either will or they won’t, the precise odds at this time are 50/50…
Onyxgem…Nor am I, but I’m going on record as guessing they will. Providing, of course, that the line-up card is not placed under control of the members of a lunatic asylum…
The Cardinals will be good in 2023, provided they do not lose extended time to key players. What would really push them over the top is if someone steps up to be the clear ace of the pitching staff.
One key personnel decision they may have fumbled on was bringing up Marmol to the manager position. Looking back, they made a mistake not hiring Francona when they had the chance. He would have brought in the stability and leadership we had with LaRussa.
At any rate, Ollie is the guy and should get better as his experience accumulates.
Jnevel:
Well said and as you pointed out trades are difficult as there is a variety of factors in play. Signing free agents is rather less complicated though expensive. You and other posters have great confidence in the prospects. I do not, as most prospects fail in the end to be anything but average. I have heard posters say that we have never had this much young elite talent. Permission to chuckle. Young yes but elite? Depends on what you think elite is. DeJong, Kizner (sp), Gorman, Ypes, Carlson, Donovan, Nootbar have shown nothing that would suggest exceptionality. Now, yes some could suddenly blossom…but I doubt it. It’s very rare to bring up a superstar from AAA. A Pujols comes along once in a generation. Walker is the latest hyped prospect and we’ll see, probably this year. But I remember that Drew, Ankiel, Rasmus, Piscoty, Grichuk (sp), Pham, Diaz, DeJong and a dozen others were the Second Coming. All of them…busts. That’s why I like to go to other teams and get “GOOD” talent. Of course, to do that would mean major money and/or trading quality prospects. Junior won’t do either one. So, we tread water as each season goes by. The Cardinals are like a guy in the water and you throw him life preserver but without a rope on it. He won’t drown but he’ll never get anywhere. I guess we’ll see what happens when the season starts.
Instead of tanking which would result in some loss seasons, they hung in there and gave us exciting, playoff seasons as they were slowly building a team that could go deep into October. They stayed away from high risk FAs who could skew payroll and limit their flexibility in the future. Now, they want to see what they have before making any additional moves. If moves do need to be made, October is 2/3 of a year away. Plenty of time. As was stated by Mo.
I’m sure there’s some meaning in what you stated when you talked about tanking. I don’t have much to say about it but I’m sure it was directed to 1-2 teams. Flags fly forever and a couple of those tankers have hoisted hardware at the end of the season and another is on the cusp if they can pull it together.
bccran said:
If someone doesn’t step up into the ace role, there’s plenty of time to trade for one.
What in the team’s recent history gives you any confidence of that? What true aces will be available this summer and would the Cards pay the price in players it would take to get one?
In recent years, they aimed lower and got lucky in 2022, but they also gave up just two marginal prospects in Oviedo and Nunez. To get a big arm, it would hurt and they haven’t shown any inclination to go there.
At WWU, BDW Jr. reiterated they would rather spend money than prospects, yet when they had the chance to add pitching via free agency, they passed because prices were above their comfort level. Can’t see those dynamics improving in July, when demand is even higher and supply is lower.
They traded for Woody Williams. They traded for Lester. They traded for Ozuna. They traded for Goldy. They traded for Arenado. They traded for Montgomery. They traded for Quintana. Etc. They’ve shown that they’re quite capable of making a trade when they feel they have a need. It seems that the biggest difference right now is that 4 out of 5 starters aren’t under contract for 2024. They’ll probably consider extending Miles and Monty if they think they’re good fits. They’ll look closely at the progress of Graceffo and McGreevey over the season. Especially Graceffo. But if they’re in need of a higher end starter for the playoffs, why wouldn’t they make a trade, since they have a history of doing so? And raise the pitching sights a little higher this time?
And as far as Winter Warm Up? I’ve never seen BDW or Mo show their hand. They keep their cards close to the vest.On the other hand, its a good time to be a Cardinals prospect in the upper levels or a guy just braking in to MLB. There is not too much difference between a back of rotation guy, who probably can’t stay healthy anyway, and a back of rotation prospect like Liberatore, McGreevy and Thompson. I consider Graceffo a back of rotation prospect also, not being as sold on him as most, but I won’t fight about it. And then there is Woody. It doesn’t look like they will get blocked by Mo bringing in a horse unless and until they fail.
The same goes for the position player side. Most especially for Gordon. All he has to do is outplay a utility guy. But none of them are going to get blocked by a contract guy who will play no matter what.
bccran, most of those trades you cite occurred in the offseason and none were for an ace. Your bar as to what defines an ace is much lower than others.
Sure, a Quintana might be available in July, but he isn’t an ace. He is a steady journeyman who had a brief period that was far better than his career norm.
When the PBO and owner quotes supposedly support your position, you extend them beyond what was actually said to what you hope they mean. When the comments conflict, you brush them off.
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