MLB labor unrest

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This topic contains 214 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by Avatar CariocaCardinal 1 month, 1 week ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 151 through 175 (of 215 total)
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  • #82538
    jj-cf-stl
    jj-cf-stl
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    Free

    If Marwin Gonzalez can sign for 2/21mil for his age 30 and 31 seasons, is free agency really broken?

    We know Bryce and Manny will get theres, but here’s a super utility with one outlier career year and another handful of 103 to 109 ops+ seasons who imo did well on the open market.

    Just because the players don’t like the timing of the signings, it doesn’t mean they aren’t getting paid.

    The “funny money” overpays are on the way out. I think that’s what the players are upset over.

    #82542
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    mudville
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    I’ve suggested that Boras could be responsible for this whole thing by saying that he could be at the bottom of this because of his masterful skill at manipulating the media. I don’t see how the vast majority of players, who are well below the tier of players who are making megamillions, would care if Machado or Harper sign for $100, $200M, or $300M, or if Kimbrel gets 2 years with a $10M AVV rather than 6 years and $96M. Why would they care? The one that really cares is Boras. He’s been dominating MLB and free agency his whole life. For him to be put down now would ruin his legacy. IMO, this so-called ‘labor unrest’ is being instigated by somebody. Somebody started the idea of a wildcat strike. I think Waino, and now many others, had that idea passed to them by somebody else who also told them to talk about it publicly. Just look at the players at the Cardinals’ spring training. Does anybody seriously believe that these kids are scheming about going on strike during the season? I think Boras and a handful of others are the instigators of all this labor unrest. And, FWIW, I think they are playing the mainstream sports media for patsies.

    #82545
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    CariocaCardinal
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    I think almost all of the players concerns can be addressed without large scale changes. I could easily see something like this:

    Years 1 and 2 at fixed salaries of $800k and $1.2 million

    Years 3 and 4 as arb years but minimums of $2 million and $3 million

    Years 5 and 6 as restricted free agency. Would require qualifying offer offers of $4.5 million and $6 million. Teams could match offer. Teams losing player would receive compensatory pick at the end of round one, two, or three depending on the quality of the player.

    Players would gain FA after 6 years. Qualifying offer similar to current cba. Teams signing elite players would not lose picks but teams losing players would receive compensatory pick.

    Players would be considered to have service time for FA purposes (years 4+) based on rounding. 3.5 years or more would equal 4 years service time for example (The Bryant/Vlad rule)

    Rule 4 draft picks would be weighted lottery for non playoff teams.

    Contracts will be 7 years max. No trade clauses limited to 15 teams. Opt outs eliminated.

    Feb 1 date max for FA signings. After that date requires 30 day minor league rehab.

    Sept 1 Roster size limited to 30 players

    NL adopts DH.

    Team floor on salaries ($85 million)

    Luxury tax kicks in at $225 million.

    Biggest sticking point will be guarantee to players of a certain minimum % of league revenues. My guess would be that it ends up in the 56%-58% range minimum.

    I think this adresses nearly all the concerns from the players and is something the owners can live with. And it doesn’t burn the house down!

    #82548
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    CariocaCardinal
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    Correction to the above. Rounding for service time would only start at 4.5 years rounding up to 5 (the point where restricted FA starts)

    #82552
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    cc, they need to hire you to mediate. It is likely going to take three years of a lot of pain, maybe followed by a strike, for the two parties to get to this point – when as you indicate, they could solve this with time to spare, if everyone would just shut up and get to work.

    #82560
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    CariocaCardinal
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    The key is that the players are focused on both the size of the pie (total salaries/% of revenues) and how that pie is distributed. The owners only care about the size of the pie. That allows the owners to give in on how it is distributed and in return give up less of the pie.

    Anyone want whipped cream with their pie?

    #82621
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    gscottar
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    CC, I really like a lot of your ideas. Spot on.

    The only modification I would make would be to set the payroll minimum at $100M. Revenue sharing was supposed to provide small market teams with a chance to spend more but most are not doing it. The Pirates having a team payroll of $68M is an embarrassment to the league. I understand why their fans are livid.

    #82644
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    cc, I am not into giving others to-dos, so ignore this if you prefer…

    Are there any items that would be player concessions to go along with the long list of owner concessions?

    The reason I ask is that I am wondering how balanced the changes need to be to be accepted. My gut, with nothing other than a scan of the items, is that they are very significant benefits to players. The players will have to give on some items, too, to get this many concessions from owners, I suspect.

    Maybe it is a guess at prioritization, with the highest ones being the ones the players would most insist on. Just thinking out loud about the give and take process needed to get a deal done.

    #82655
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    CariocaCardinal
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    Brian, no offense. I welcome people building and improving on my ideas.

    I think 7 year max contracts and no opt outs are pretty significant.

    Biggest thing the owners give up is payroll floor both at the team and slightly the overall level. Giving in to the DH isnt that big a deal to the owners. What this doesnt do is commit the owners to spend much more than they currently do (except for those below the floor). It mostly will just rearrange who gets paid.

    #82658
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    For gscottar. 😉

    #82681
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    gscottar
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    Very cool! He must not have been much of a player if he had to become an agent.

    #82816
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    gscottar
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    Goold with the rare pertinent comment..

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Avatar gscottar.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #82826
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    Agreed that it is pertinent, but hardly a newsflash. Didn’t we all know this already? IMO, it is the wrong point, as no one who understands what is going on believes that the owners could not pay if they chose. The core issue is a change in how teams value players. To me it feels more like feeding the fringe segment of fans still holding out hope that Harper will sign with the Cardinals.

    #83298
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    gscottar
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    #83339
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    Good progress on a number of issues.

    #83783
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    I guess this is oriented toward the casual fan who needs to read “clues” to determine what the players’ issues are.

    #83798
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    mudville
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    Both MLB and the players seem to think that they’re entitled to all the money that pours into them, and that the only question is how they’re going to divvy it up. Then, you get clowns like Jeff Gordon of the Post-Dispatch recommending that players like Hicks and Flaherty should refuse to perform during the season if they don’t get what they want prior to the start of the season. If there’s a strike, I think the backlash by the fans will be overwhelming.

    #83811
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    I expanded on many of the points made in the discussions here…

    #83834
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    CariocaCardinal
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    Neither Flaherty or Hicks seems upset with the team. They are upset with system.

    Both Flaherty and Hicks should be happy that the team didnt mess with their service time. Both would have been easy to do.

    The idea that a one year 6-4 arbitration victory has even the minimum of statistical significance or would “embolden” anyone seems far fetched to me.

    Teams and players could easily (and should) put an end to this silly dickering over early year salaries by instituting a fixed salary scale for these years. They could even include bonuses for MVP. ROY. and Cy Young votes. This is something that could easily be done in the upcoming off season with no need to wait until after 2021.

    #83839
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    gscottar
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    Interesting article about players over the age of 30. (Subscription required)

    #83846
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    CC said:

    The idea that a one year 6-4 arbitration victory has even the minimum of statistical significance or would “embolden” anyone seems far fetched to me.

    That is because you missed the point. It is not the count. It is the quality of player and the money involved.

    Look at the total contract values and gaps between the two positions of the six player winners compared to the four who lost. The four losers’ salaries this year in total are $9.35 MM. The six winners will make $51.6 MM.

    The winners are all headliners – Trevor Bauer, Gerrit Cole, Alex Wood, Tommy Pham, A’s closer Blake Treinen and Carlos Correa. The losers were Kyle Barraclough, Ryan Tepera, Michael Taylor and Michael Fulmer. There is a significant difference in the quality of player between the two groups.

    This, like so many matters relating to pay, affect mostly the top tier of players, like Flaherty and Hicks are on track to be in two years when eligible.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Brian Walton Brian Walton.
    #83849
    bicyclemike
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    Pretty much what is going on everywhere. The gap in compensation between those in the higher levels of an organization and those in the lower are widening.

    Baseball of very objective, so it is easy to determine the higher level employees.

    Specific to Hicks, the Cardinals are losing on him in a big way. First, he was rushed to the big club too soon, and did not pitch enough to warrant him being on the team. But with the Cardinals’ desperate need for bullpen help, they needed him. Now it looks like this will continue and he will likely wind up a late inning pitcher. This puts him at high risk for an injury. What could have been a golden arm and top-tier starter during the mid-2020s may turn out to be another Trevor Rosenthal flash in the pan.

    He may end up being a latter-day “Curt Flood”, and sue the Cardinals and baseball for misuse and loss of lifetime earnings.

    Hopefully all of that never happens, but it will to some guy at some point in this litigious society.

    #83850
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    I’ve never thought of that angle, bikemike, and I am neither a lawyer nor even stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently. However, as a layman and potential juror, it seems like it would be very difficult to prove that a player could have been more than he was, when we all know he could have been less, too. Hard case to justify convincingly.

    #83859
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    #83862
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    CariocaCardinal
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    The trade deadline is bad for the union (but they wanted it) because some veterans are being signed with the knowledge that they can be flipped at the deadline. Making that harder will mean fewer of those signings.

    Owners made major error in giving in to 26 man roster with no major concession in return.

    In fact, I see little the owners got in return. And I doubt very much that they got what they most wanted and that was to squelch player discontent. Bad deal for the owners.

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