- This topic has 161 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 10 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
I asked BDW, Jr. one time about two high A prospects and he proceeded to tell me what they did well and what they needed to work on. He truly loves to track the Cardinals minor leaguers as they come through the system.
That being said, I don’t understand 3 things –
1.) Why he sits back and watches the lack of proper development of players as they arrive at the major league level unprepared.
2.) Why he sits back and watches young players bloom when they’re traded to other organizations. Especially after Mo has said they need to
look closely at how they evaluate prospects. No obvious changes for years.3.) Why he sits back and watches Mo hire guys like Oli and Blake who are highly unqualified as new hires coming into their positions.
The only thing I can think is that he thinks Mo has done it before and can somehow do it again. And they have become very close over almost 30 years and it’s hard to fire a friend.
Brian with all due respect, i do think you are a little off on whether its been a good ten years or not. Sure if you go by our last couple, its pretty bleak but pushing it out, its not near as bad as some organizations. Sure if you go by the decade or so before it looks bad but that was more of an abberation. The braves had a run like that. Its hard to repeat that. So to me you have to look at it in a more historical context. And by that measure we arent too far off or maybe we are right on except maybe the playoff success. So to me our record over these last 10 years isnt the biggest concern. To me its player development. Especially with an owner that isnt going to go all out spending. If our player development or player selection isnt improved, then our record is going to get worse and that can be brought into question.
Liberatore
Thompson
McGreevy
Graceffo
Hence
Mathews
Roby
Robberse
Kloffenstein
Rom
Bedell
RajcicPlenty to work with. Develop them!
We’ve covered this before: listing a bunch of names doesn’t necessarily mean there’s depth or quality at a position.
Every team in MLB has a long list of names of minor league pitchers (and OFs, and 3Bs, and . . .). Do they all therefore have “plenty to work with?”
You’re right. we have gone over this before, RBK. A bunch of talented pitchers who need expert developmental instruction. Of course there are guys like this in every organization. It’s what baseball is all about. And yes, I’ve had just regular guys like Alcantara and Gallen on lists like this.
crany you have a make believe list there. Cross off the bum arm guys and the failure to launch guys who couldn’t make the 40 man somewhere else, the not a starter anyway guy because he can’t go 90-100 innings plus having a sore arm, and the ones who have had their chances already and you are left with McGreevy,Mathews and Rajcic. So think about what can be done with that list.
After Albert was picked in the 13th round the Cards took on the belief that they could operate on the theory that a great ballplayer could carry a team with the help of average to good supporting teammates. As Albert’s contract came to an end, Onteveras was the next in line. It seems to me that the front office got gun shy after that untimely incident. We took a shot with Ankiel,Drew, Hudson, etc.; we missed. Not that they were not good players, but they were not Pujols or Stan. McGuire, as good for the game as the contest with Sosa was at the time, could not carry the team to Championships. Just spitballing here, but is it more sound thinking to build a strong club and then enjoy that ‘generational talent’ when it comes along? It took the Javiers, Maxvells, McCarvers, Shannons, Floods, Brocks, etc. to build a team. Each a good ballplayer in their on right, but a dynamo as a unit. BDW spent $$$ on Arenado,Goldsmith,etc , but failed in surrounding them with that “dynamo”. Minor league hype does not translate to an Allstar. Our player development has fallen behind. Donovan, Edman, Siani, Burleson and countless others were not ‘hyped’ and yet they have been expected to carry this team. As a team, we have hit a rough patch, the question is where do we go from here? Championships are not easy, but a more than competive bunch of guys,that enjoy the game is not to much to ask as a fan. Sorry for the ramble guys.
1982willie said:
Brian with all due respect, i do think you are a little off on whether its been a good ten years or not. Sure if you go by our last couple, its pretty bleak but pushing it out, its not near as bad as some organizations.
I agree; it is not as bad as SOME organizations. In my view, what has happened is that the organization and fans have lowered their standards. Do we want to feel good comparing the Cardinals to the Royals and Cubs while knowing they have no realistic chance of winning the World Series or should we be comparing them to the Braves and Dodgers?
As DeWitt himself said SIX YEARS AGO in 2018 when firing Matheny:
“In some places a winning record, or even .500, is even acceptable. Not with this city, not with this franchise, not with its history, and not with the fans.”
So, yes, when stacked up against .500 teams, the Cards are competitive, but not against the big boys anymore. Some fans are excited about the prospect of slipping into the playoffs as the last wild card, as if that would be a major accomplishment. For SOME teams, it would be.
As bccran said, “Bill has been sitting back and watching” instead of taking action. As has already been discussed, until the revenue train slowed down, there was likely not any urgency. The decline was not immediate. More like a wound that didn’t seem serious enough to get stitched up, but kept on bleeding.
P.S. This sitting back and watching reminds me a lot of how DeWitt handled the terrible internal turmoil that led to Jocketty’s firing in 2007. The organization had splintered into two camps and was in a constant battle for several years. He let it fester until it finally got so bad he had to make a very tough decision. DeWitt fired a very successful GM who was trying to hold onto the past rather than move forward.
This is not speculation. I know it. I saw it.
It ain’t complicated. Winning is good. Losing is bad. Playing .500 ball is like kissing your sister. Or how much lipstick you put on the pig.
.bccran, it is hard to develop pitchers when they are injured. Half of the names on your laundry list are either on the IL right now or have missed considerable time this season. The other half haven’t stepped forward, with one exception – Mathews.
And of the names, only two are considered potential difference-makers. Hence, who missed two months and has been in Double-A for a year now, and the new great hope, Mathews.
Here’s why I think DeWitt is more concerned about revenue & profit than winning:
What has been the Cardinals mantra the last two decades?
It has not been, “We are going to try to win a World Series every year”!
It has been, “We are going to try to be competitive. Anything can happen in the playoffs.”
Corporate culture means a lot, and corporate culture emanates from the top.
How many times have we seen the Cardinals play somebody just because of their contract?
How many times have we seen the Cardinals bench players, yo-yo them up and down to/from AAA, only to see them blossom as soon as they are out of “the Cardinals Way.”
The Cardinals are in the second weakest division in all of baseball. They should be winning the division every year. It doesn’t take unlimited resources. Only one team in the division has better financial resources.
Does anybody see any evidence the Cardinals believe in continuous improvement?
What happened when the analytics staff left for Houston? Brian posted a few months ago the views of one MLB insider who thought the Cardinals now have one of the worst analytics departments in all of MLB.
As long as the mantra is “We just want to compete every year, and see what happens”, the Cardinals will continue to hope for .500 seasons rather than trying to add World Series championships.
the views of one MLB insider who thought the Cardinals now have one of the worst analytics departments in all of MLB.
Luhnow was brought in by Jockety. BDW somehow got the idea that Mo could lead the team into the analytics era. When Luhnow and the others left, Mo rebuilt the analytics department. That’s why it sucks.
No, that is incorrect. Luhnow was brought in by the DeWitts. Jocketty fought him at every juncture. It is easy to fact check.
P.S. My understanding is that Michael Girsch has been in charge of sheparding the analytics department for some time. Yes, he reports to Mo, but so does everyone in baseball ops.
Of course, Mo didn’t bring in Luhnow. He wasn’t in charge yet. He was just an AGM at that time, like Flores, Gary LaRocque and Moises Rodriguez are today. He and Luhnow were peers.
Exactly, so the cutting edge analytics department wasn’t Mo’s doing but the worst in MLB analytics department is.
Counting this season the Cardinals will have won ONE playoff series in the last ten years. I’m sorry but that is a decline. Maybe not for some cities but for St. Louis it is.
Well heck, boys & girls….here’s my take for what it’s worth…
Sure, Cards have a tremendous history! But that’s all it is at this point…history.
We are no longer an elite franchise. We hold no fascination for the baseball universe or the national media.
Baseball, like most pro sports, is a “What have you done for me lately” type of deal. And there’s no way to spin it…lately stinks!
This franchise needs a refresh…bold leadership…new ideas & new voices. Will the DeWitt’s do what so desperately needs to be done? Stay Tuned…
Albert?
What desperately needs to be done?
Looks to me like a handful of people need to go. Marmol, Mo, and the hitting coach. Personally I’d like to see Joe Maddon in the dugout myself.
Then BDW needs to spend some $$$ to bring in 2-3 free agents to give us some offense. Another top of the line starter would also help.
Then we ALL HAVE TO PRAY that some of the players that we’ve been counting on the last 2-3 years finally live up to expectations.
Do we all agree that this is what desperately needs to be done?
r/Esteemed Rat
\Walker and Gorman need to find themselves a fancy hitting guru this winter before its too late. The Cardinals org can’t help.
Brian, to be compared to teams like the dodgers we would have to spend like the dodgers. Thats not going to happen under current ades ownership. We could also get better at getting the right talent and developing it but like i said, we are not doing that right now. Like i said, there were decades where we werent as good but we werent far off. We got some talent through the draft, made a couple trades, improved the players and bam we were back into it. Right now i dont think we have the pieces in place in ownership to make it happen. Organizationally we arent functioning well.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.