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Bob, Liby had that stretch of 8 AAA starts when more were good than not, but there were some of each. This is a guy with almost 300 IP in AAA, he should be able to put together a nice stretch. But, overall, he his a .500 pitcher in AAA. He has always struggled to keep his head above water for any length of time since A ball. Including now. Reasons for hope and rationalizations for failure are always possible though, especially with first round pedigree.
I’ve seen less than 70 IP’ed from Liberatore which is not a whole lot go on, but most of that work has been during turns in the rotation and I’ve never been given an indication that he’s a SP’er in which I should pin any hopes on. That could change, or he could prove to be an effective option out the BP, but he looks the same to me this season as he did in ’22, which is a pitcher that isn’t at all very effective at setting down Big League hitters.
My untouchable list:
Herrera
Walker
Donovan
Nootbaar
GormanThere are others I’d rather not part with, but we’ve dug a deep hole.
There’s not a single pitcher in the org I wouldn’t include in trade.
Herrera isn’t untouchable Edman is.
Edman has had an OPS under .700 in three out of his five years in the majors.
We have 3 potential shortstops for next season, without counting Donovan. We have 2 catchers and a expensive DH masquerading as a catcher.
Eddie does make my “rather not part with” list.
Edman’s value is defensive versatility, being a highly competent IF/OF UT who can handle CF and SS. His bat is not much, but is not an automatic out either. Sticking him down in the order is not much of a detriment to the lineup. I don’t think we would get enough for him to be worth having to replace all that defensive coverage.
The thing that confuses me is all the CF reps when Carlson was available. Why? Maybe if you are considering making him your full time CF. Well, they didn’t even though he looked fine. The other obvious possibility is to build trade value.
The thing that confuses me is all the CF reps when Carlson was available. Why?
Just the Cardinals continuing their tradition of putting infielders in the outfield ahead of outfielders (see Matt Adams, Kolten Wong)…
Dodgers acquired a right handed bat (singles hitter) Amed Rosario, a SS. Not sure if that satisfies their wish to add a right handed bat which had linked them to the Cards, so not sure if it impacts O’Neill. Two completely different type of hitters, but maybe a bat on ball guy is what they actually wanted.
I’d be fine with Edman as the CF/SS next year. But I also wouldn’t hesitate to move him if he’s part of bringing a nice return. He and Nootbaar would probably be big hits in Seattle and if it brought us some arms…
Well LAD have added Kiki and now Rosario, means my hope of trading them DeJong and Edman for some of their pitching prospects is out the window.
I don’t think anybody at all would be untouchable to me, but guys like Donovan and Nootbaar would require a pretty big haul to get me to consider it. I’d still be trying to trade Edman, DeJong, O’Neill, Baker, Flaherty, Montgomery, Hicks, Stratton, VerHagen, and probably Herrera, unless somehow could find a taker for Contreras but I highly doubt that would happen. I know a guy like VerHagen isn’t going to get much, but it’s the time of year teams are really trying to add depth and we saw AZ pen and Texas pen hasn’t been good, a guy like VerHagen could still be helpful and his contract is expiring anyway.
To me keeping ANY expiring contracts at this point is a complete waste and not moving Herrea while his value is high would be a failure because Contreras is the catcher with the idiotic contract he has.jj:
If those are your untradables then you won’t get anything worth having. Nobody wants the guys left over. You have to give up talent to get something good. How stupid do you think the other GM’s are? They’re not going to take our scrapings and give us anything good. Just how daring are Mo and Junior? Do they have the guts to take risks or are they scared to fail? We’ll know in the next few days.
The White Sox got two prospects, a pitcher and a catcher, neither of which is on the current MLB top 100 prospects list, in exchange for top shelf starter rental Giolito and a good reliever rental who has allowed zero runs his last 5 appearances.
The pitcher prospect is a second round pick (2021) whose season has been derailed by injury, a lat strain this spring that had him out for months. He did well in AA in 2022 and is back at AA this year finally, with not too great results so far. If he stays healthy and bounces back well, he will be in AAA in 2024.
I report all this here for three reasons:
First, we have rental starters, but the Angels didn’t beat a path to our door. They liked somebody else’s deal better.
Second, that is what a Giolito level starter rental plus a good reliever gets, so we need to be realistic about what Monty and Flaherty can fetch.
Third, Giolito is from So Cal, so he is going home and landing with a money team, so its likely to be next to impossible to land him as a FA this winter.
The prospects are the Angels’ 3rd and 4th ranked (or second and third, depending on the ranking source). I am reading that they are pretty good.
For the Cards, 3 and 4 would be McGreevy and Graceffo or Herrera depending on the list. Not national top 100 but very good prospects. But if you want to cherry pick their negatives under the guise of being “realistic”, you could make them look bad, too.
I think we should be happy if we can get another McGreevy and Graceffo. Neither of those guys is setting the world on fire, but Monty and Flaherty are not Giolito.
I guess I should mention that the overall objective, between now and opening day, is to get pitching that is better than what we already have. Both for the ML staff and the upper levels. More of what we have is not going to be the difference maker we need. But it is better than nothing.
Nathan Leopold Jr.
I don’t consider Arenado, Goldy, Edman, Montgomery, Flaherty, Contreras, Gallegos, Helsley, Hicks, Winn or Carlson to be “scrapings”, as you do.
Each of the above could be a headliner with less significant players not mentioned added to a package. I have everyone available except the five I mentioned.
Pick any minor league pitcher you like, and I have them as available, unless you think they are all scraps too?
jj, as to you list of untouchables, it is interesting that you incude Herrera and exclude Winn. I would only include next year’s core group of young players, and I am thinking either, both or neither may be part of it, depending. So I would think both or neither would be untouchable, but have trouble justifying one and not the other.
If you like the term “scrapings” better than “slugs”, then Nathan is actually improving his outlook! 😉
Some of the difference between Herrera and Winn as I see it is opportunity. That is both in terms of playing time opportunity (unless the low odds that Contreras is traded comes to pass) as well as options remaining opportunity. Herrera is almost out of runway to be stashed in Memphis indefinitely (only one more year). As discussed, Winn isn’t even on the roster yet and seems to have a clear shot for a regular job next season (if all continues to progress positively).
These factors matter to other teams just as they do to the Cardinals. In this part of the comparison, Winn wins out…
BB – you state that Montgomery is not Giolito. I’m not sure I agree. I think they are similar.
Giolito has pitched just a little longer but both essentially have 7 years. Giolito’s career ERA is 4.26. Montgomery’s is 3.76. Mind you that most of Montgomery’s time was pitching against the AL East and at Yankee stadium vs Giolito in the AL Central. They both have a career WHIP of just over 1.2. Giolito does have one all-star season, but that was 5 years ago. Giolito has 10.5 career WAR to Montgomery’s 7.5, but he has a couple hundred more innings so on a rate basis, Montgomery has a slight edge, but Giolito eats a little more innings so call it even.
I think they’re very similar. I might even choose Montgomery if I had the choice between the two, but it’s close. So I think we should get a similar package.
Spoke with Joel Wolfe, who represents Nolan Arenado. He declined to get into specifics about the L.A. Times report regarding the Cardinals-Dodgers talks, but he did say the idea that Arenado would only waive his no-trade clause for the Dodgers was "inaccurate."
— Mark Feinsand (@Feinsand) July 27, 2023
Bling, same reasoning with Winn as with Edmans above. #229283
Winn does make my “rather not part with” list. Roster options are better at SS.
jj:
I never said any of those guys were bad. Carlson is the only one I think is mediocre. Any of those guys would bring something. Do they have the courage to trade Arenado and other good players? It’ll be interesting to find out.
It is going to be interesting to see how the catching situation is handled after the deadline. Assuming nobody gets traded, there doesn’t seem to be any reason not to have Herrera back there regularly for an in depth look prior to the off season. But we all should be willing to accept that there have been instances of perplexing player utilization this year, so who knows.
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