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Mo takes the mound this weekend and we need a quality start out of him. The meek inherit the basement.
They want young cost-controllable pitching, not expensive aces.
I agree that is what they want. I imagine almost all of the pitching additions between now and opening day 2024 will be younger pre-arb guys but I also think that 2023 has been such a pitching disaster that the Cardinals just might feel that they finally need to venture into the FA market for one big name starter.
The key words there are “as for now”.
The Cardinals have a decision to make regarding Tyler O'Neill and how he fits into their long-term plans. As for now however, it doesn't appear the #STLCards are inclined to move him at the trade deadline.
More here: https://t.co/TXPKBnNxBQ
— Katie Woo (@katiejwoo) July 25, 2023
the Cardinals just might feel that they finally need to venture into the FA market for one big name starter.
The way I see it, Mo needs two guys for the opening day rotation. I really don’t know what kind of quality they will be. It will be the two new guys, Mikolas, Matz and Liberatore. Assuming health.
Bob and Brian-
Thanks for the warm welcome back!
Brian-
I don’t think I had recognized your point re payroll. 16th??? That does explain some stuff. And makes me guardedly optimistic they might actually outbid someone on a major starter this offseason.
Bling-
I’d slot Hudson over Liberatore for fifth starter next year. He’s had a couple seasons that are at least that good, and there’s a plausible physical explanation for his problems early this year. My money is on his getting one of the spots opened up if they trade both Flaherty and Montgomery to audition for next year’s rotation. I’d rather he were 6th starter next year, though. Liberatore hasn’t shown the MLB performance, and reading commentary, sounds like the front office has grown less certain about him.
I don’t usually like the “I heard it from the cousin of a sister’s best friend…” type of information but..
Former MLB pitcher David Weathers (father of current San Diego Padres pitcher Ryan Weathers) is related to my sister-in-law and this past weekend they were visiting with my brother. According to David, the Padres and Cardinals had an even-swap of Ryan and Liberatore but the Padres GM backed out at the last minute.
He also confirmed that Shildt was fired because Shildt wouldn’t give in to Mo’s sabermetric demands. Apparently Shildt and Ryan have developed a pretty good working relationship.
Anyway it appears that the Cards were (or are) giving up on Liberatore so it wouldn’t surprise me if they packaged him in a deal either at the Trade Deadline or in the offseason.
On another note, all of those that are calling for the Cards to jettison Contreras, please provide tangible reasons why (i.e. your analytic proof in comparison to the other catchers we have) so we can see that it is based on good baseball proof and not that you just hate him. I am pretty certain that no matter who we got to replace Yadi you all would not have been satisfied.
Bling-
I’d slot Hudson over Liberatore f
Given that choice, I would too. But if it was my choice neither would be with the organization next year. My thinking is if there is any possible narrative that can be constructed to put Liberatore in the rotation, he will be there. Him and his 1.800 WHIP.
We could get prime controllable pitching from LA for Arenado, and Walker could move to his natural position, with Gorman plan B.
Walker is Juan Yepez-level bad at 3B, just like he is Juan Yepez-level bad in the outfield.
Walker is Juan Yepez-level bad at 3B, just like he is Juan Yepez-level bad in the outfield.
The narrative is Walker is bad in the outfield because he just started playing there. I have often been reminded of that.
I also want to point out that I, like most people, have followed Walker closely since he got to AA. There was not a single word on this board, the member board, or anywhere else in the whole world that I know of, about Walker being a terrible fielding 3rd baseman, not until after he arrived in St. Louis as an outfielder and we saw what he looked like. Once that happened, quite a few people here and elsewhere seemed to have known he was a terrible 3rd baseman.
The Cardinals are still selling. If both sides are unable to come to an agreement on terms, St. Louis will trade Hicks by the deadline. #STLCards https://t.co/E1Yef62xcO
— Katie Woo (@katiejwoo) July 25, 2023
Bling-
Curious why you’d like Hudson gone. I might have said the same till his callup. He looks to me like he’d at the very least be a solid long man in the pen, better than a lot of 8th reliever options, so I’d like to see him around. Whereas Liberatore I’d like to see at AAA till he shows he’s figured things out.
We could probably trade DeJong, O’Neill, Carlson and Flaherty even up for for Katie Woo, John Denton, Derrick Gould and the little guy with the bowtie. Not sure if any of them can hit, field or pitch, but we’d know what’s going on…Keep Manny Motter purely for entertainment value as he always provides a laugh when he taps out or K’s.
Curious why you’d like Hudson gone
Because he has a bum shoulder, which means he will always have arm trouble. If he can stay on the mound the rest of the season we could get something for him. Let somebody else deal with a sore arm pitcher.
The only reason I can imagine to resign Hicks is the supposed need to focus more on swing and miss. He’s been in the org since 2015 and was first called up in 2018. We’ve been waiting to get consistent production out of him the whole time. Every time he takes the mound its a total craps shoot. He might strike out the side and he might walk the bases loaded. You never know which it will be. You can’t win with pitching like that. The roster is clogged with pitchers that cannot be counted upon to have a good outing.
“Liberatore hasn’t shown the MLB performance, and reading commentary, sounds like the front office has grown less certain about him.”
I have to differ, Gags. At least a little bit. I mean, about the nature of, the cause of Liberatore’s disappointing MLB performance this year. Please forgive me for doing a copy/paste of my comment from a couple weeks ago:
Matt Liberatore was excellent in Spring Training, excellent across eight Triple-A starts (3.13 ERA), and then excellent again in his MLB season debut on May 17, twirling 5 shutout innings. (He needed 95 pitches to do so, which is a pretty important detail.)
Then Ollie Marmol did something that MLB managers very, very, very rarely do except in case of emergency. He brought back Liberatore on short rest to pitch an inning out of the bullpen. It took Matt 24 pitches to stagger through that inning, and he’s been beyond dreadful ever since, as his fastball has steadily eroded bit by bit.
He’s now permitted 24 earned runs in his last 27 innings, including that indefensible relief appearance. And take a look at the 4-seamer velocity from the Brooks Baseball website:
5/17 start 95.4 MPH
5/21 relief 96.0
5/26 start 95.2
6/6 94.1
6/12 93.8
6/18 93.5
6/25 93.9
7/1 93.1That’s 2.3 MPH lost in just six weeks. And he lost even more off his slider and curveball velocities. That’s a physical impairment.
And then tonight’s debacle. I think every bad Liberatore start since his pointless, moronic relief appearance can be attributed directly to the boy manager. And every bad game to come. And any trip to the DL this season. When a manager does something extremely unorthodox and it backfires this horrifically, he deserves every drop of available blame.—————————————————–
I don’t know if Liberatore is ever going to get back to what he was prior to his bizarre and fateful relief outing. But he looked absolutely like a #2/3 MLB starter before that.
I Think there’s more to the Arenado thing. I think it has a realistic chance of happening if the haul is good and naturally a certain 2 way guy ends up staying put or heading out of LA.
Far as moving Walker to 3rd. We better figure it out. If we keep Goldy and give him another year on his deal. First would be blocked and DH might be blocked by then as well when the eventual move of Willson to DH would likely happen. Walker’s bat plays but his glove is awful in the OF.
This above is also assuming Contreras isn’t moved to South Florida. Rumor has some legs.
I think Tyler and Jordan are going to stay put.
Thanks Bob, I’ve really grown tired of the same old same old about how Liberatore isn’ a lost cause, so at least you’ve got a new one. But the actual truth is its not just whatever Ollie did. Liberatore has not dominated since A level ball in 2019. I agree he can look good in stretches. That is nothing new. But his MLB line over parts of 2 seasons is horrible and is not getting better. Enough already.
I am concerned with what the Cards can expect in return for Flaherty and/or Montgomery. Say they cannot work out a deal … Would it make sense for the Cards to make both of them qualifying offers? This would fill two rotations spots f they accept or provide two draft picks if they sign elsewhere.
I’d offer Jack Flaherty $20MM — if it’s for three years. For one year? I’d say 8 million, max. Whatever happens with Flaherty, the Cards will NOT get a draft pick because no team will sign Jack for $55MM or more, which is the minimum required for draft pick compensation unfortunately. Therefore we’ll likely see Jack packaged with one or more others in some sort of Deadline deal.
Montgomery on the other hand warrants a Qualifying Offer, which as a Boras client he will of course reject with extreme prejudice. I figure someone will give Jordan 75 or 80 big ones over the winter, which would net the Cards a 3rd-round pick as compensation. Outside chance, $100MM+ contract for Monty and a 2nd-round comp pick for the Birds.
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I understand how you could be suffering from Liberatore Fatigue, Bling, a medical condition usually accompanied by a bad case of Arozarena Regret. But Matt really was materially different this year, right up until that short-rest bullpen nonsense. Lower ERAs, better velocity, firmer command of his pitches. Maybe he’ll get that back and maybe he won’t, but he’s still just 23 so I’d implore you to keep the faith, brother Cardfan.
Thanks, Bob! I’d managed to forget that relief appearance and had not seen the co-incident velocity problem. I’ll keep my fingers crossed that any physical problem is of the sort that an offseason will help.
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