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The term development implies patience, time, and opportunity. Have you seen Thompson pitch (he asked with more tension in his voice than he would have wished. He felt the tone lacked the respect Marilyn deserved.)? I have seen him touch 100. His curve is compared by Carrey to Max Fried. Liberatore has proven in mlb games he can carve up an order. They still must develop and improve to achieve dominance (that we fans casually refer to as being consistent).
I say this not to argue your point, but rather to excite your sense of possibility.
We witnessed an era of winning that was historic. The world series is too chaotic to accurately predict, but the team is now positioned to get back in, and if those kids develop (which implies even better future results), we can expect to honor Goldy and Arenado’s commitment to us with solid starting pitching.
I love the chance that next year’s version of Palante,Thompson, Liberatore, etc…is better than last year’s version of Rom, Woodford, Hudson, Pallante,Thompson. Liberatote, etc…even if Gibson is more a 4 than a 5 now… it doesnt change our rotation from looking like
2-3-4-4-5
There are several guys with major concerns over their performance
Gibson Lynn Matz are all question marks
could Matz be more a 3? i guess…but he’s hurt all the time
could Gibson and Lynn be more 4s than 5? sure…but who cares? bad pitchers givign lots of innings that are bad isnt helpful
could Mikolas play like a 2 again? i guess, but he coudl easily digress
Gray will undoubtedly digress from his runner up to the CY Young level he was last year, he wont be betterThis rotation looks like it is already about to fall apart
and what would the postseason rotation look like? Gray, Mikolas, Matz? That does put fear into any opposing club nor spark all that much confidence for the Cardinals players
I am going to root for the team and all the players to do their best….but it is pretty depressing after what we had to watch last year
Gray + Yama or Shota…then let a kid play or bring in a cheap vet…sure
there is hope there, Gray having a nice big last year…then an unknown but exciting import?
That is how you excite a fanbase who is pretty depressed
bring in Gray who we watched already as a Red (to mixed results) and a couple of old end of their career players isnt going to make ANYONE excited, except their agents
Unless there is some Matz trade happening (as he is the only one i could see moving of him or Mik) that brings us a young pitcher from like SEA or something…i just dont see any reason to be optimistic about a raise in the level of play or outcome for the next season
really depressing…tbh
even if we trade Oneill or Carlson…so what? for what are we bringing back? money for a midlevel reliever? and a less than great replacement for the hitters? at least they have some upside and ceiling still
if we trade Donovan or Gorman or Edman how does that make us better? especially after bringing in 3 SPs?
All i see is making room for Scott III and Winn with any other moves…by moving any of our hitters…a high end reliever woudl be great, but we obviously wont pay for it..and trading hitters for relievers is not often successful as RPs are so volatile year to year for performance
Gray, Mik, Matz, Gib, Lynn
Helsley, GG, Jojo, Lib, King, Zach, Pallante
Noot (CF), Walker (RF), Goldy (1), Nado (3), Willson (c), Gorman (DH), Oneill (LF), Edman (2), Donny (2)
Ivan, Winn, Carlson, BurlyThat seems like the team folks….not much to get excited about really…it’s the same team, no real potential upgrades….unless we make some Arenado/Goldy move for Trout…and even then…with our rotation it might not matter
Sure…seeing Gorman and Noot and Walker and maybe Winn get better could be fun…
but there is ZERO upside for the rotation…and while we may have a few MAYBE rotation arms in the high minors…are any of them dominating types outside of Hence? who seems more like 2025 than this year…
It’s a pretty boring team and they had a chance to get people excited through some actual spending of money signings….instead …they bring in the most boring and easy solutions
Gray as the SP1. I’m good with that. In fact I view this acquisition as a necessity. This is “significant pitching needed”, getting added to our roster. CY-2
Yes, it is depressing and the strategy is not likely to change anytime soon.
The fact remains that the Cardinals are unwilling to spend big on any one player and will continue to play around the margins and hope to get lucky. That is an unexciting strategy for sure.
If ending 2023 with the worst record in 33 years wasn’t a big enough motivator I don’t know what will be.
It’s was an embarrassment and is a huge motivator for BDW and Mo. It’s why they’re being so aggressive right now.
“Accept the things I cannot change”. Sonny Gray was my last choice, but it’s done so I’m not going to spend any time complaining. He has a good upside so i’m going to focus on that. You can’t deny our pitching should be better. Strengthen the bullpen and roll it out. The up side is we didn’t have to trade any young players with value. Now just figure out how to use them.
Gray is a solid move, although I don’t love giving up the 2nd rounder. Is there a chance we get a competitive balance pick this year? That would help ease the sting a bit. The money for Gray is fine, and won’t crush us. Having a rotation mostly full of guys in their mid 30s is risky, no doubt. Wouldn’t hurt to grab another pitcher on the right side of 30, IMO.
I think spending 25 million per season on gray is big, up to the individual to decide if it’s worth it. If he pitches like he did this past season over the next two seasons then you would feel he was worth it particularly if our team hits better for him than his team last season did. Should he be the last really good pitcher we get, no, but like I say it’s a better move than Mo has done pitching wise in a while.
You can always trade a longer term contract.
If you sign somebody to 6 years and they blow up their shoulder you’re screwed. Either we have a hugely overpriced Flaherty and can’t afford to hire a different guy for the duration or BDW eats it and ponies up again. One guess which it would be. 3/75 for something way better than what we have is ok.
As I said, there is nothing wrong with Gray. Signing a 34 year old who has probably pitched his best season and will more likely decline is not aggressive.
Signing one of the Japanese pitchers would fit my definition of aggressive.
I have said my piece. The Cardinals did what they always do. Play it safe and around the margins.
Playing it safe might be enough to win a weak division if everything goes right, but suggesting the team is a World Series contender with this rotation probably isn’t realistic.
It will be interesting to see how the odds shift with these signings.
I don’t think the Cardinals are finished. As I posted in trade acquisitions, Jon Morosi says that we are involved with the Padres for Juan Soto. If that happens we are closer to WS contention.
We were supposedly in on Juan Soto once before and it was a mirage.
Ask yourself why the Padres want to trade Soto.
With the three signings for the rotation so far, if there is no regression among the starters, the Cardinals are hopefully 5 wins better than last year.
They can still upgrade from Mikolas (doubtful) and Matz (more probable), though Matz did wind up with a good 3.86 ERA last year, replicating the 2021 season that got him his contract in the first place (except for innings pitched).
To get back to .500, the Cardinals will have to upgrade the bullpen and take care of the little things.
Compared to some deals last year not so bad….Gray and Gibson are pretty good adds to the Rotation, still not sure what to make of the Lynn signing
Carlos Rodon ….6 years $162 million
De Grom…..5 years $185 millionGray is a good pitcher when healthy. Another older guy though who may have peaked with his 2023 campaign. But if he can give us two decent years, we will hopefully have younger arms ready to take charge at that point. And Gray will be playing close to his home, so maybe that is an intangible that helps him feel the love and be a motivation.
Still adding a 34 year old guy to the two older-than-that guys as your rotation upgrade is not all that thrilling. Personally I always like going with young, promising guys moreso than doing the “let’s go for it in the short term” approach. But as has been said, it is what this organization does.
I think Marilyn Green speaks for many of us fans. A team that just finished in last place for the second time in 100 years has more or less had a business-as-usual offseason.
The Cards just paid $75M plus a very high draft pick plus half a million bucks in International signing money, all for a 34-year-old starter who pitches like an Ace exactly once every four years (2015, 19, 23). Yuck.
Meanwhile some lucky fanbase will be getting a 25-year-old twirler who pitches like a combo of Maddux & Smoltz every single season — and he won’t cost any draft picks or anything else but money. Too bad it won’t be us Redbird fans.
I wanted Yamamoto, Cease, and Freeland. A #1, #2, and #3 whose average age is 27.
Instead, for very similar money, we got a #2, #4, and #5 whose average age is 35. Terrible. Unless they change the manager & pitching coach, the Cards are at best now a .500 team that finishes third in the division.In fact, at this point the Pirates are the only team in the division that I would bet even money the Birds finish ahead of in 2024. This offseason has been a disgrace.
If they are doing a trade, then trade for Cease or Glasnow. We don’t need another outfielder. We are trying to dump some of what we have.
I won’t deny I wanted Yamamoto but I knew that was pie in the sky thinking for the Cardinals. They don’t do that kind of thing.
I want yamamoto too but so do some other teams. If you put all your eggs into one basket to get him and then you don’t, then we end up with just Lynn and Gibson, then you basically get nothing. He also by himself doesn’t make us a world series contender in my opinion. We will see how things go further
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