So what are we going to do?

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  • #174724
    Cardinal in France
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    So, what are we going to do? Are we going to say the 2021 Cardinals really was a good team after all, based on a hot streak at the end of the year and a brief whiff of the post-season, and just tweak a few things over the winter while hoping our performance for the first ¾ of this season was merely an aberration. Or, are we going to seriously shuffle the deck, spend some money, acquire some bats and some starting pitching?

    If we decide to try to improve our anemic offense from most of 2021, who are we going to replace. In a lineup of:
    Edman
    Goldy
    O’Neill
    Arenado
    Carlson
    Molina
    Sosa
    Bader
    Who needs to go?
    Maybe a better shortstop if one can be had.
    Who else? A better bench? OK, sure. More and better pitching is always welcome. But the hitters. How can we improve on the above lot?

    #174733
    Wooster
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    I’d say CIF that Carp and DeJong need to go. Don’t know what you can get back if you unload them. A hitting established SS is needed. Same with 2nd base. The corners and OF are set
    . Edman can play and float the infield. Bullpen is pretty good but starting pitching and a reliable closer are also needed. Not that many pieces missing.

    #174736
    bccran
    Participant

    The outfield, 3B, 2B, 1B, and catcher are set. SS is the only question mark. And Sosa has had some good moments.

    It’s the 5 reserves where the action may be. DeJong will probably be gone and Carp will be gone for sure. So maybe a clean slate for all 5? Knizner? Maybe. Nootbaar? Maybe. Rondon? Maybe. Donovan, Yepez, Gorman? Maybe. Robertson, Capel, and Burleson? Maybe.

    It will be fun to watch any and all moves.

    #174737
    Ratsbuddy
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    Absolutely go after a shortstop. DeJong is about similar to Carpenter at this point in that he has fizzled. Sosa, whilst he did okay, isnt the long term answer. I’ve said many times on here that Seager from the Dodgers would look good in a Cardinal uniform.

    And we can say – hopefully – bye bye to Carpenter, Miller, Carlos Martinez, and Fowler’s contracts.

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #174742
    forsch31
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    Looking at this as a What the Cardinals Need to Do:

    1) Let Andrew Miller walk.
    2) Buy out Carpenter’s and Martinez’ options.
    3) Find a leadoff hitter.
    4) Strengthen the bench.
    5) Shore up the relief pitching.
    6) Get better pitching depth.

    I will post another time on why we need to do this and what I think we need to do to accomplish it.

    #174744
    858booyah
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    I bet no minf help is coming.

    They might address the pen.

    They might get a bottom rotation starter. I mean of Reyes is “a starter”.

    I think the DH comes out of the fall league. I mean why is Nootbar there?

    Dejong might get dealt to a team looking to dump a bullpen guy or starter in a ballpark where he can hit. idk

    #174745
    Cardinal in France
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    The lineup listed in the first posting of this thread is essentially the lineup that won 17 straight. Which of these eight players should we replace to make us a better team?

    #174748
    blingboy
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    Paid - Annual

    I agree with forsch31’s to-do list with caveats.

    I am going on the assumption that Mo will focus on the pitching side as far as bringing in new guys from outside the organization. Starter depth and relief, especially left side.

    An unknown to me is whether the suits think Sosa’s glove works as everyday starting shortstop. I am OK with it, but I am not a suit.

    We need a leadoff hitter who can do better than .308 OBP, no question about that. The no muss way to accomplish it is to put Sosa there vs righties (.359 OBP) and Carlson vs lefties (.394 OBP).

    I think the DH and bench will be stocked from within. Nootbaar and Yepez seem all but certain. Pluss minor league guy.

    Knizner is not safe, IMO, because I don’t think he would fly as everyday if Yadi goes down early, knock on wood.

    I don’t like Albert or Maddux, but I doubt Albert is going anywhere. Not sure about Maddux.

    #174749
    bccran
    Participant

    Tommy Edman is the consummate leadoff hitter. He was only given 66 games at AAA, where he slashed .308/.363/483/.846. 2021 was his first full season as a major league starter. He’ll improve on his OBP in 2022.

    The rotation is set, expect for #5. That will probably be either Reyes, Woodford, Happ, Lester, or Kim.

    The bullpen is relatively set also, with Gallegos, Hicks, Helsley, Garcia, and Whitley from the right side and Cabrera and McFarland from the left side.

    The bench is where they need some work, with Carp, DeJong, Thomas, and Willams gone from the picture.

    #174750
    Cards667
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    I’d wouldn’t mind Seager either. Defensively DeJong is probably better, offensively there’s no comparison and Seager is a LH bat too which the team needs. The return for DeJong wouldn’t be much with his last couple seasons. He has 2 years of control at $6.2 and $9.2 and then 2 option years. I think they can find a suitor for him though and hopefully package Justin Williams with him.
    Seager(28) and Correra (27) are going to enter the market with Lindor(28) just signing a 10 year $341 million extension. Other comparable contracts are Arenado (2019) 7 years $234 million, Trout (2019) 10 years $360 million, Betts (2020) 12 years $365 million.
    I think the season Correra is coming off of and his defense are going to make him the highest paid SS of this class and he could see close to if not match Lindor’s contract. I think Seagers average defense and injury history keeps him from getting there but 7 years and $200-230 with an 8th year option is at least what I think it takes. The Cardinals are freeing up quite a bit of wasted money in Carpenter, Martinez, Miller, Fowler. But they also have Goldschmidt and Arenado contracts and Flaherty coming. I don’t known if they will spend, even as much as I’d love to see them go “all in” for Wainwright and Molina last year and add Seager and Scherzer, but I’m sure Scherzer is going to command 2 years and probably $80 million.

    Edman 2B (S)
    Goldschmidt 1B (R)
    Seager SS (L)
    Arenado 3B (R)
    O’Neill LF (R)
    Carlson RF (S)
    Gorman DH (L) 2B/3B
    Molina C (R)
    Bader CF (R)

    Sosa IF (R)
    Yepez 1B/3B/LF/RF (R)
    Nootbaar OF (L)
    Knizner C (R)

    Scherzer, Flaherty, Hudson, Wainwright, Mikolas

    Woodford, Reyes, McFarland (L), Helsley/Whitley, Garcia, Cabrera (L), Hicks, Gallegos

    McFarland is a free agent and I wouldn’t mind him back, but if they can land an upgrade via DeJong trade package over McFarland or just to sure up the pen in general more, maybe over Garica or Woodford (could remain a starter in AAA), it would be nice. Let Reyes stretch out as a starter and get a chance possibly if there is an injury. If not I’d use him as a multiple inning guy and maybe some spot starts, just have to see how that plays out and what he does to improve that terrible BB%.

    #174751
    bccran
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    The Cards have been burned too many times with outside free agents. Thinking they are going to sign a big name FA SS or Max is a pipe dream.

    #174752
    Cards667
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    Free

    I’m sure it is. I just said what I’d like to see and I didn’t think they’d spend, but I’d like to see them go all in for Wainwright and Molina farewell. But San Diego didn’t succeed in buying a ring either, so it’s no guarantee. And it’s also not my money I’m hypothetically spending a lot of.

    #174754
    Nigel T
    Participant

    Paid - Three Months

    Trade O’Neil now. He is the least clutch player we have (that was my provocative statement of the day rather than fact). Remove his production during the team’s hot streak, and you will find a man who stranded more people than Joe B….sorry Brian that was meant as humor.
    He will never be worth more for doing so little.

    #174758
    forsch31
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    Edman might be the consummate leadoff hitter in the future. However, until his OBP is up around .350, he should not be hitting leadoff. That’s like saying Carlson should be your #3 hitter in 2022 because of how he hit in the minors in 2019. They haven’t earned it, yet, and there are better options. As of right now, I would make Sosa the leadoff hitter. He is getting on base at a higher clip.

    #174760
    Nigel T
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    Paid - Three Months

    You can’t count Edman as your lead off hitter if Nolan Gorman is playing 2B.

    #174762
    bccran
    Participant

    1.) Edman’s natural position is SS.
    2.) Edman’s speed and ability to hit doubles more than trumps Sosa’s higher OBP.
    Plus he’s a switch hitter.

    #174763
    Ratsbuddy
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    Edman will be the leadoff hitter in 2022.

    Not sure who will be in the #2 spot. Perhaps Seager.

    3 – Arenado
    4 – Goldschmidt
    5 – O’Neill
    6 – Carlson
    7 – Molina
    8 – Bader

    r/Esteemed Rat

    #174764
    Cards667
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    I’d put money there will be a DH in 2022. My guess Gorman will be the DH vs RHP and occasionally spelling Arenado at 3B and Edman at 2B. And vs LHP it will be Yepez at DH and occasionally spelling Goldschmidt at 1B.

    #174766
    bccran
    Participant

    Edman came in 2nd in the major leagues in doubles, and 4th in the major leagues in stolen bases. In his first full season in the major leagues. Where did any posters want to hit him in the lineup besides leadoff?

    #174767
    1982 willie
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    Paid - Annual

    There is no way we are signing seager. He’s going to command a huge contract. It would be nice to see the cards go after a big time free agent like that but they aren’t. They go after the not so great ones and say hey look what happens when we go after free agents.

    #174768
    1982 willie
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    As the lineup is now, edman should be our lead off. Does that mean he is a great lead off hitter, not so much. He’s had his moments but he’s better there than batting say second. Hopefully with more work, he will improve.

    #174770
    bccran
    Participant

    Edman is smart. An engineering major at Stanford before he was drafted. He knows that his job at leadoff is to get on base at a higher percentage. He’ll figure it out.

    #174771
    Ratsbuddy
    Participant

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    Maybe we could re-sign Dexter Fowler and have him hit leadoff for us?

    3 years/$60 Million – how does that sound?

    #174772
    forsch31
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    bc, SS may have been Edman’s “natural” position but when both Edman and Sosa were in the lineup together, Sosa played SS. Sosa is on base more often than Edman, therefore, he has more opportunities to score or disrupt the pitcher. Edman’s penchant for hitting doubles would work better hitting behind Sosa since Sosa could score from 1B on a double. Edman could “figure (hitting leadoff) out” but he has had almost 1300 major league plate appearances to do it already. I would have Edman batting either 2nd or 6th. Once Edman starts showing he can get on base at a higher clip or Sosa doesn’t maintain his high OBP, then Edman may be the leadoff hitter.

    In a perfect situation, my lineup would be:
    SS – Sosa or 2B – Edman
    RF – Carlson
    3B – Arenado
    1B – Goldschmidt
    LF – O’Neill
    2B – Edman or SS – Sosa
    C – Molina
    CF – Bader
    P
    if the DH does materialize for the NL, put Gorman/Yepez after O’Neill and slide Molina and Bader down 1 place.

    #174773
    Nathan Leopold Jr.
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    I would like to see serious additions SS, DH. Rotation and bullpen but the winning streak cements the fact that no or very little action will take place. The lineup that we had against the Dodgers for the play in game will be the lineup for opening night in 2022.

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