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  • #145084
    AvatarPadsFS
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    The Gerrit Cole and Chris Archer trades are perfect microcosms for why the Pirates are terrible. Trade Cole in January of 2018 for basically replaceable players (Moran and Musgrove). Cole goes on to produce two Cy Young worthy seasons in Houston. Then turn around and trade two future stars to Tampa for Archer in July of the same year.

    Imagine the 2019 Pirates with Gerrit Cole (2.50 ERA, 20-5), Tyler Glasnow (1.78 ERA, 6-1), and Austin Meadows (.291 BA, 33 HRs)

    Or if they had gotten equivalent value for Cole that they gave to Tampa for Archer.

    #145090
    Avatargscottar
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    I don’t blame the Pirates for trading Cole because they weren’t going to be able to keep him long term but the return they got was a joke and of course the Archer trade was a disaster.

    I still think they have some interesting young pieces on the roster but a team with a limited payroll has to win each trade which they haven’t done. Their owner has also been extra stingy in my opinion.

    #145092
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    People forget that Cole wasn’t that great his last couple of years in Pittsburgh. The Pirates’ sinkerballing philosophy was a hindrance, and once he got to Houston, they had him let the fastball eat and picked up velocity and his Ks skyrocketed.

    #147074
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    #152065
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Is there anything lower than last place?

    #152066
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Preller is becoming the new Dipoto.

    As for the Pirates, they’ll probably get the #1 pick again next year. Should be good for their farm.

    #152070
    Avatarmudville
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    I think this is a salary dump. Brian commented that he’s heard that one of the things the owners will put on the table when discussing the next CBA is arbitration. So arbitration and a salary cap will both be on the table, then add to that, comments like the one our own Andrew Miller made about playing 162 games in 2021 because that’s what the contract says, and we can brace for a strike in 2022, IMO.

    I hope we don’t have to listen to clubs like the Padres and the Phillies and the Mets bellyache about how much money they are losing during the strike, if in fact, there is one. They’ve had plenty of time to prepare themselves.

    #152071
    Avatar1964cards
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    The owners need to be prepared to accept revenue sharing and a salary floor if they want a salary cap.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Avatar1964cards.
    #152073
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    mudville, “…bellyache about how much money they are losing during the strike…”

    What moneys are you referring to?

    #152095
    Avatargscottar
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    I think this is a salary dump

    Mud, Musgrove is scheduled to only make $4.4M this year. Not much of a salary dump.

    This is a full on tank and rebuild. I hope the Pirates are loading up on high end prospects because they may only win 50 games this year.

    #152107
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    Musgrove was the PIT second highest salary before the trade and ~10% of their total payroll. It was a significant dump for PIT. Will Frazier be next at 4.3mil?

    #152109
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    Everything is relational I suppose. Would Musgrove’s trade been considered a salary dump a month ago before the Bell trade? The payroll percentages would have been different. Jettisoning $4.4M usually isn’t considered a dump. Maybe covid alters the prism a bit.

    A salary dump would be getting rid of Polanco but I doubt anyone wants him.

    #152110
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    The Pirates are a sad franchise. They were definitely riding the wave of goodwill there from about 2013-18, and then uncharacteristically made the big trade for Archer, costing them Meadows and Glasnow, who both look like very useful players, and Shane Baz, who is a pretty good prospect. It’s a shame, because Pittsburgh really supports their teams when they show they are trying to compete. Will probably be a few years before Pittsburgh even looks average again.

    #152113
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    The only way I see to move Polanco would be a mutual salary dump, where PIT receives no, to very little salary relief.

    Musgrove for prospects would be Andrew Miller for prospects for us, which would fit the ~10% of total budget comparison. If we did that our FO would probably PR it as financial flexibility, whether they spent it or not later. With PIT it’s their dump and restock philosophy, and everyone knows it, just as it was when they acquired Musgrove.

    Bell before Musgrove? That lowers the % on Musgrove, but clubs usually try to deal their Stanton, then Ozuna, then Yelich (who later climbed the pecking order). Just my hunch, but trying to trade the highest salaries first, while trade partners have their largest portion of funds available during an offseason, makes sense.

    #152117
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    Traditionally a salary dump meant getting rid of a significant salary with very little return, meaning the primary motivation was just getting rid of the salary obligation. In this case I imagine Pittsburgh’s primary motivation is restocking the farm system since they are obviously tanking. I haven’t analyzed each prospect they received in the trade but initial reports indicate they did ok.

    If percentage of payroll is going to be included into the definition of salary dump then that does change the perception of what the Pirates are doing.

    Also I suspect that Musgrove has much higher value on the trade market than Andrew Miller. Otherwise let’s call Preller and do Miller for Cronenworth.

    #152118
    Avatarmudville
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    ‘Salary dump’ is relative, IMO. If you’re projecting a loss, and the loss is coming out of the
    organization’s general fund, that’s tolerable as long as you can project that it’s a short term loss. But if you already know you’re going to lose money in 2021, for example, and if you used up all of your general fund in 2020, for example, then that $4.4M salary for Musgrove is going to come out of your personal bank account, so you dump that salary to keep it from happening. Strikes are losers for everybody concerned, and a strike for 2022 seems inevitable at this time, which IMO, is further reason to conserve your resources by lowering payroll if you’re an owner. That appears to be what the Cardinals are doing with Molina and Wainwright, and what they already did with Wong and Brebbia.

    #152119
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    The Pirates received five prospects in the trade. Four of them now rank in their top 30 (6, 18, 20, and 30) so they got a nice little return for Musgrove. Not just a traditional salary dump.

    #152121
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Are they mutually exclusive? Doesn’t a “traditional salary dump” generally include prospects going in the other direction? To me, it is a clear dump, coupled with a good return.

    #152127
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    “…coupled with a good return.”
    That would be a nice change for PIT, if in fact it does turn out that way.

    Gerrit Cole
    for
    Michael Feliz, Jason Martin, Colin Moran and Joe Musgrove

    Moran has been a 99 ops+ for PIT over 3 seasons and Musgrove a 93 ERA+. The Cole return looks underwhelming at this point. The two trades are similar in that the prospect packages have the talent distributed over four players. Edit-Musgrove for 5 players, even more watered down.

    In Coles trade, PIT should have received a headliner, worth at least 75% of the package, and didn’t. Musgrove shouldn’t have brought as much in return in his trade, but is there a clear headliner? Head?

    When PIT traded for Archer the TBR got a two player package, Glasnow and Meadows. Both had debuted and weren’t teenage suspects.

    I dislike spreading the value over multiple prospects trades, because the most common outcome seems to be dwindling returns, compounded down to little value.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl.
    #152129
    Avatargscottar
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    Are they mutually exclusive? Doesn’t a “traditional salary dump” generally include prospects going in the other direction? To me, it is a clear dump, coupled with a good return.

    Usually so but my definition of a salary dump would be like trading Fowler or Carpenter for two GCL (EST) players who probably have no shot at the bigs. That is not what Pittsburgh did. They got back legit prospects.

    Tomayto Tomahto I guess.

    #152130
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    JJ, I didn’t say the Pirates were good at making trades. They obviously aren’t. I am just deciphering their intent.

    #152387
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    The Pirate purge continues.

    They got prospects ranked 15, 19, and 21 in the Yankee system plus another.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Avatargscottar.
    #152389
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    At this point, it’s not about saving money for the Pirates. They’re simply trying to be as bad as possible.

    #152390
    Avatar1964cards
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    “Theo model” for improving the ML team?

    #152391
    Avatargscottar
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    At this point, it’s not about saving money for the Pirates. They’re simply trying to be as bad as possible.

    Exactly. That was my point after the Musgrove trade. Not really a salary dump. This is a full blown tank. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are now in a heated race for lowest payroll in the league. This is why I would like to see a salary floor tax installed.

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