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The club’s best defensive middle infielder is going to play outfield.
The Platinum Glove-winning 3B and Gold Glove 1B will continue to take turns as Designated Hitter.
The team’s only Gold Glove OF is so despised by his manager that a trade seems a fait accompli.No wonder the defense has collapsed. Thanks, Ollie!
The club’s best defensive middle infielder is going to play outfield.
The Platinum Glove-winning 3B and Gold Glove 1B will continue to take turns as Designated Hitter.
The team’s only Gold Glove OF is so despised by his manager that a trade seems a fait accompli.No wonder the defense has collapsed. Thanks, Ollie!
Having Edman play the OF irritates me too but the roster is too jammed at middle infield. Where does Gorman, Donovan, and Winn play? The roster being jammed is a FO problem.
I don’t like seeing Goldy and Arenado DH either. Ollie probably deserves some blame for that but I also suspect Mo’s algorithm is in play here too.
O’Neill is a fantastic LF but the gold glove doesn’t help the team when he is sitting on the IL. I swear this guy could pull a tricep brushing his teeth. That is a player problem.
“Having Edman play the OF irritates me too but the roster is too jammed at middle infield. Where does Gorman, Donovan, and Winn play? The roster being jammed is a FO problem.”
I agree about the front office, G.
But it’s still the manager’s job to get the most from his resources. So here’s what in my mind should be the alignment. Winn & Edman up the middle, Gorman as full-time DH until Goldy leaves, at which time Nolan takes over at first base. Center field can be manned competently by Carlson or Noot until Victor Scott is ready. If Scott flounders badly in AAA, the Cards can look for a short-term CF fix either at the trade deadline this year, or next winter.(Heck, what they ought to do right now about CF is go hard after free agent Jung-hoo Lee, who looks like a Korean Bobby Abreu, but can play Center. He’s projected by at least one source [McDaniel, ESPN] to only get $13M per year and that’s a pittance for a 25-year-old with his resume.)
Or Donovan can be DH this year and Gorman can be packaged with a mid-level prospect or two for Dylan Cease. Then the rotation could be presentable in 2024.
Re Arenado and Goldy, it’s axiomatically insane for a Gold Glove defender to ever be DH. The position exists so that bad fielders can hit. Not so that great fielders can get so-called “half-days-off.” You know how many times Mookie Betts was Dodger DH in 2023? Zero. In 2022? Zero. 2021? Also zero. And that’s a pretty smart organization.
Don’t get me started on O’Neill or I might really tell you what I think of Marmol’s managerial stylings.
I agree with most of those suggestions Bob. I really do. Pitching and defense has always won championships and still do.
As for O’Neill, is he going to be traded because Ollie publicly threw him under the bus or because he can’t stay on the field? It is probably a combination of the two but I believe that if he was capable of staying healthy long enough to get 500 AB’s and play a gold glove LF he would not be trade bait right now, regardless of the hurt feelings.
Did I miss something? Did Marmol set the alignment that Mo announced?
It seems that what some folks remain focused on what “they ought to do” rather than what they say they are going to do…
(Not that it matters, but I read the other day that the Dodgers are moving Betts full time to second base and out of center field.)
I don’t at all think of Edman as a liability in CF. In my view the only issue connected with earmarking Eddie as the primary Redbird CF’er is that he’s obviously best suited as a middle infielder. I’ve always felt that the primary function of a manager was to use his roster in a manner that would best place the team in a position to win and to place his players in positions and situations that would afford that player the best chance to excel and succeed in the interest of contributing to the success of the team. In my view, the current leadership of this ballclub is sorely lacking in that area.
I always thought Betts was primarily a RF’er? At any rate, LA is 2000 miles from where my favorite team plays. If the Dodgers want to do something silly, that’s perfectly okay by me…
I’m sure Betts could man up in CF and not miss a beat, BW, but why waste a right arm that’s suited for RF? Not too many baserunners go 1B to 3B on Mookie. Another reason that it’s silly to entirely waste that arm at 2B.
Hmmm…I’d have to say that GameCard and myself are somewhat similar in the sense that we both think Edman’s pretty good…Haha!
It’s a waste of a resource to keep Edman solely as a fallback plan for Masyn Winn.
Edman shouldn’t be the fallback plan in 2024, he should be the starting SS. Winn needs more time in Memphis.
but the roster is too jammed at middle infield. Where does Gorman, Donovan, and Winn play? The roster being jammed is a FO problem.
Gorman – 2B
Donovan – UT – he can play 2B, 3B, corner OF. That’s 4 games per week, plus one at DH
Winn – should start the season in AAA.Winn & Edman up the middle, Gorman as full-time DH until Goldy leaves, at which time Nolan takes over at first base.
Or package Winn & Walker in a trade for Bobby Witt, Jr. Keep Gorman at DH. Let Donovan be your LF.
I’d have to guess that unless Winn swings the bat exceptionally well in ST’ing thereby affording the Cardinals no other immediate choice but to place him on the 26 man, that it’s near to be guaranteed that he starts the season in Memphis.
Imo this team as currently constructed is not a contender, even in our weak division! As I see it, our rotation is
1)Don’t have one
2)Sonny Gray
3)Don’t have one
4)Mikolas
5)GibsonI’m not putting Lynn in there! He is below a 5 imo! You can’t compete for division titles with a pitching staff this short of arms! As bling said our hitting is likely to be middle of the pack! Now if we trade for a Cease or Glasnow or sign a Yamamoto things will be different! What we hope they do is one thing, what they have done is only enough to get out of the cellar and that’s gonna be close!
He wasn’t even number one for the twins! Lopez was! He is a great pitcher and a huge improvement over what we had last year, but for a contender or division winner he is not! Also he has never been the number one guy on any team he has ever pitched for! In Cincy he was number three or so, for twins number 2, which is what he should be for us!
Steve60, I think just having 5 starters with a history of answering the bell every 5 days and reliably going 5+ to 6+ innings is going to make a huge difference. All the more if Mo beefs up the pen.
I see it this way. If a pitcher has an ERA of 5.00 and he goes 6 innings, then on average, he exits after 6 having given up 3.3 runs. And the pen just has to cover the 7th, 8th and 9th. I can happily live with that out of our 3-4-5 starters day in and day out all season long.
Or package Winn & Walker in a trade for Bobby Witt Jr.
Interesting proposed trade, LACardFan. I look at that as a rarity where neither side pulls the trigger. My take on it is that Mo would have to be crazy to make that deal. Looking at the ceiling of these 3, all 3 have the potential to be super stars, so it would be ignorant to be the team trading 2 for 1.
And I agree with Steve60 in that we still need one more stud starting pitcher. From the reports, it looks like Cincy, LA or Baltimore is going to get their mitts on Cease. Cease is the guy we needed, as he’s right at the precipice of doing great things……just everything about him makes him the perfect fit for us. I’m still holding out hope that Mo is going to get him, even though it will cost us Gorman…..and a bit more.
BicycleMike mentioned possibly jettisoning Mikolas, Goldy and Arenado out in trade. Mikolas and Goldy won’t fetch us much, and Arenado is elite. Seems odd saying that Goldy won’t bring us much in trade, but at this stage in his career that’s where we’re at. Besides, if Mo truly believes that this group is prepared to make a serious run at the title, then you keep Goldy.
I’ve been thinking about this Marmol quote that Jeff Jones tweeted and Brian posted the other day.
Marmol was asked about the plan for playing time at second base, and here’s how he opened his answer before praising Donovan and Gorman:
“It depends on how a lot of other things play out over the next couple months leading into the season. We’ll see what our roster looks like.”
The most obvious thing is it suggests the starting 8 isn’t cast in stone despite Mo announcing what the infield and outfield will be.
But there is another aspect. I went to the original tweet and looked at some of the responses. Almost everyone seemed to assume that the implication was that one of Gorman or Donovan might be traded. That is not necessarily the case. The implication is that some lineup regular might be traded, which could affect who gets what playing time at 2B. It might be one of them, or it might be someone else, requiring one of them to play somewhere besides 2B. For example, if Arenado got traded, Gorman would play 3B not 2B. If any one of Nootbaar, Edman, Walker get traded, Donovan might play in LF, at least for a while.
I also noticed this comment on the Yadi thread, which indirectly touches on the 2024 lineup:
I think Yadi is around to improve the clubhouse vibe and teach Contreras how to call a game.
Despite the catchergate narrative that Willson is lacking as to calling games, it would make even more sense to have Yadi on hand to mentor Herrera if he found himself the starting catcher. I am not saying it proves they are trying to move Contreras, only that bringing in Yadi would be a good move if they are. I have been suspicious of the catchergate narrative from day one simply because Contreras played a substantial role behind the plate on the Chubs WS champion team. I really doubt he needs to be taught how to call a game. He seems to have done better as the season went along and he finaly had a chance to work with the pitchers who bailed on spring training right when he was trying to get familiar with a new pitching staff. That doesn’t alter the fact that he is weak defensively, as was known when Mo signed him. So I am doubtful that tutoring Willson is an aspect of Yadi coming back, and we should tap the brakes on chiseling Contreras into the 2024 lineup.
bling said:
The most obvious thing is it suggests the starting 8 isn’t cast in stone despite Mo announcing what the infield and outfield will be.
Folks need to go back and listen to the clip in the first post of this thread. Mozeliak clearly says “when you look at our infield RIGHT NOW”. He did NOT say “opening day”. So there is nothing in stone. Of course there could be changes ahead.
I guarantee you that later in the off-season if a regular is traded, some segment of the fan base is going to scream that “Mo lied to us!”
The implication is that some lineup regular might be traded, which could affect who gets what playing time at 2B. It might be one of them, or it might be someone else, requiring one of them to play somewhere besides 2B. For example, if Arenado got traded, Gorman would play 3B not 2B. If any one of Nootbaar, Edman, Walker get traded, Donovan might play in LF, at least for a while.
While trading Arenado, Nootbaar or Walker is technically possible, everything we have seen and heard suggests they are not available. My guess is it would take a lot for them to trade Edman, especially now that he has been named the starter in CF. These are all very low odds scenarios.
Relieving the second base logjam is a possible target because neither Gorman nor Donovan are probably starting material anywhere else on this roster other than DH. That doesn’t mean one will be traded, but it is a clear overlap. That seemed obvious to me, but maybe it isn’t to everyone else.
bling said:
So I am doubtful that tutoring Willson is an aspect of Yadi coming back, and we should tap the brakes on chiseling Contreras into the 2024 lineup.
I believe you are making this situation too black and white. I am sure there are aspects of catching the two will discuss when they talk shop, as all players do. Is Contreras the main reason Molina is coming back? Probably not. Could he still help? Sure. He can help the catchers and pitchers alike. He could even help the infield positioning to try to limit the ground game.
Turning Molina’s return into a theory that Contreras is on the trade block is almost certainly not the case. If they were going with Herrera as the starter, then they would never have let the proven reserve Knizner go. This idea makes no sense to me whatsoever. I’d give it about the same chance as Molina unretiring and playing himself. Now, there’s a theory to chew on! 😉
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