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Mo needs to do three things.
1. Trade Carlson
2. Trade O’neill
3. Trade EdmanThen he can go back to St. Louis and start his vacation.
“Edman is as good of a defensive
centerfieldersecond baseman as there is.”There. Fixed it.
I honestly believe that no other Cardinal manager since the 1970’s would move a mediocre-hitting Gold Glove middle infielder (in his defensive prime) to the outfield. Only Ollie could rationalize a counterproductive move like this.“This team can win the Division in 2024 with what they’ve got.”
I don’t understand this sentiment. The Cards just finished last for the 2nd time in a century, 20 games under .500, and for some mysterious reason they return their awful manager and his leading coaches. Their Pythagorean record in 2023 was also 20 games below .500.
There was no bad luck involved. They did not suffer a rash of injuries to important contributors. They have added one well above average pitcher and a pair of 36-year-olds who combined for a 5.00+ ERA last year.
I don’t see how on earth that adds up to more than 78-80 wins. I’d really, really like to, but I can’t see it.
So far I don’t see any new element that leads me to believe our dear birds will be able to climb out of the cellar.
Only Ollie could rationalize a counterproductive move like this.
Bob, I am not sure if you mis-spoke, but there is almost no chance it was Ollie’s decision to go with Edman in CF for 2024. I’m sure he is in favor of it though, wether he is or not.
I don’t see how on earth that adds up to more than 78-80 wins.
Stability and “innings depth’ from the rotation will be big factor, and I ascribe more positive impact from it than you do. But I also think that other factors were very big contributors to the bad record and will persist into 2024. From what I can gather, Mo hopes to fix the 28 blown saves problem, and I expect a big improvment there. But there seems to be no thought of fixing the bad defense or the middling offense or the manager/coaching situation. Still, there is a reasonable chance the team will be ‘competitive’ while maintaining payroll stability, which is the objective.
Mo just called out the starters and their positions in early December. If Marmol doesn’t like it, puppet #4 is on speed dial.
Crediting Marmol with these decisions is simply false, like Edman in CF. Did Marmol have input? Likely so, up to the point of philosophical differences.
Gray plus more quantity of innings from the starting pitching (not quality) will reduce the wear and tear on the bullpen and should lead to a handful more wins. So let’s pick a number – say 5. That gets the team from 20 games under to 10 games under.
Now let’s dramatically improve the bullpen and again, picking a 5 game improvement for argument’s sake – that gets the team to .500.
From this neutral position to what can happen to push the team forward or drag them back down?
Negatives
1) injuries
2) under performance
3) janky clubhouse chemistry
4) player / management conflictPositives
1) pitching prospect(s) contribute
2) position player prospect(s) contribute
3) over performance
4) division rival faltersSo, assuming Mo follows through with overhauling the bullpen I’m seeing a .500 ish ball club with the season in the balance depending primarily on what happens with injuries and accelerated production from prospects like Scott and Roby.
For example, if Scott comes on strong then that means Edman can move back to the infield in case Winn falters or it means one of Edman / Gorman / Donovan could be traded.
So many unknowns at this point that the magic 8 ball can’t see clearly…
Bob Reed
I honestly believe that no other Cardinal manager since the 1970’s would move a mediocre-hitting Gold Glove middle infielder (in his defensive prime) to the outfield. Only Ollie could rationalize a counterproductive move like this.
It makes no sense not to trade one of our four middle infielders when they are all potentially at their peak value, especially Edman. The alternative to the logjam is not to put Edman in CF. Go get a real CFer like Kiermaier (a FA no less) and trade the 2B/SS Edman for something of value as he’s worth way more as a middle infielder.
I’m nowhere near a proponent of trading Eddie, but I feel he’s the player that would generate the most interest from numerous teams. And I can pretty much guarantee that any team interested in having him as an important part of their roster would have zero interest of placing him in CF…Haha!
1toughdominican
And I can pretty much guarantee that any team interested in having him as an important part of their roster would have zero interest of placing him in CF…Haha
Exactly. So we are fitting a square peg in a round hole so as to not trade our in-house players and to ensure we have a backup SS for Winn.
Ironically, the bastion of success to our east in Cincinnati is doing the same thing with all their middle infielders, moving India, Steer, Marte, and McLain all around rather than trade the surplus players to maximize their value at their optimal position.
Marmol was asked about the plan for playing time at second base, and here's how he opened his answer before praising Donovan and Gorman:
"It depends on how a lot of other things play out over the next couple months leading into the season. We'll see what our roster looks like."
— Jeff Jones (@jmjones) December 5, 2023
Did Marmol have input? Likely so, up to the point of philosophical differences.
Very astute summation. I bet Mo is always accommodative toward Oli’s acquiescence.
Pads, Mo has Winn at short, as his starting point. That could be over in a month, with a revisit a month or two later. Can Keirmaier play short?
There’s no logjamb. Gorman and Donnie are not everyday shortstops. We only have one proven SS, and I’ll pass on trading him for a CF’r.
The one thing that can turn this team into a winner is guy’s having better years. Obviously if everyone performs with the same results as last year, we are not any better – maybe a couple of games better with Gray. But we also have enough younger position players that we may see marked improvement from two or three of those guys, and that can help turn things around.
We’ve seen it before where teams get better. I recall as a kid the 1966 Red Sox finished in 9th place, and won the pennant in ’67. It was primarily because Carl Yastrzemski, Jim Lonborg and Boomer Scott were much better in ’67. They also brought in a guy to manage who turned out to be real good, Dick Williams. A fiery leader – one thing this club does not have.
With Edman, it was a case of wanting to keep Gorman’s bat in the lineup when others were the DH, and they used him in the outfield. He has played outfield sparingly here and there during his entire big league career. Now I don’t like him as an outfielder – you really want a stronger bat out there. He is great as a second baseman, but Gorman can be all that and more – a potential 35 homer guy with adequate defense.
Best guess GC? Edman will continue being whatever the roster needs him to be. His ability to take over a starting role, at a handful of positions, has huge value to the roster. Replacement value becomes real without an Edman type available.
jj-cf-stl
Pads, Mo has Winn at short, as his starting point. That could be over in a month, with a revisit a month or two later. Can Keirmaier play short?
There’s no logjamb. Gorman and Donnie are not everyday shortstops. We only have one proven SS, and I’ll pass on trading him for a CF’r.
It’s a waste of a resource to keep Edman solely as a fallback plan for Masyn Winn.
Likewise, I’m not suggesting to trade Edman for a CFer. You trade him for a pitcher of value like Manoah, Glasnow, Trevor Rogers, Schmidt, or Bryce Miller.
Then you go and get a real CFer like Kiermaier, if you don’t think Nootbaar and Carlson are good enough out there. Go get an Elvis Andrus or Tim Anderson to backup SS. Maximize the roster, rather than keep all these contingency plans. I like Edman a lot actually, but not as the primary centerfielder.
Since they have recent history of throwing guys into the starting lineup whether or not they are ready, offensively or defensively, I would be OK with putting Scott out in CF and Edman at 2B. Gorman may well out produce Arenado offensively and defensively going forward, but I won’t go there.
Nah Pads, we’re keeping Edman as a starter (CF). “Solely as a backup to Winn” is not a realistic scenario.
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