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A middle of the order bat is the one thing we don’t need, so unless an Aranado pocket pick situation comes along Mo is not going to expend resources in that direction, hindering his ability to address what we do need.
Mo won’t give up in prospects what it would take to get Soto. Plus the chances of extending him are slim to none. It does make for interesting conversation though.
A middle of the order bat is the one thing we don’t need, so unless an Aranado pocket pick situation comes along Mo is not going to expend resources in that direction, hindering his ability to address what we do need.
Yeah, the team that’s been shut out second most in the entire majors doesn’t need a Hall of Fame bat in the lineup. I agree that pitching seems more pressing, but adding a middling pitcher or two is not going to help the overall team more than adding one of the best hitters in the game would.
This move would be more about the future than 2022 for me. We aren’t beating LA and probably not the Mets or Braves either, this year. with Soto (if they can avoid adding the Corbin albatross) and a couple good pitching additions, it takes some pressure off Flaherty and O’Neill coming back to stardom. If either of them were to, that team is a World Series contender, or perhaps even one of the favorites.
Sorry, I am just not seeing how Soto makes us an overall better team long term. The farm gets gutted and we don’t address the area of need that we really need to address. I guess losing to the Dodgers and Mets in the playoffs 10-9 instead of 3-2 is more exciting but it is still a loss.
This is a pretty good way of looking at it IMO.
https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/news/should-cardinals-pursue-juan-soto
“The juice isn’t worth the squeeze”.
Keeping Arenado happy should be priorty number 1, winning the NLC and having a decent shot in the playoffs makes that happen. They need two, not one, long term starters.
Sorry, I am just not seeing how Soto makes us an overall better team long term. The farm gets gutted and we don’t address the area of need that we really need to address. I guess losing to the Dodgers and Mets in the playoffs 10-9 instead of 3-2 is more exciting but it is still a loss.
You don’t see how adding a 6-7 WAR player in place of a 2-3 WAR player improves the team more than adding two 2 WAR pitchers to replace two 1.5 WAR pitchers?
Again, we are not winning this year. Period. I know people don’t want to punt on a season mentally, and anything technically can happen. But this team has too many flaws (inconsistent offense, pitching injuries and poor roster management in the bullpen in particular) to go toe to toe with NY or LA. So those 3-2 losses will be more like 6-2 losses, regardless.
Still, the team core is here for the next few years. If you’re trading prospects you’d still have Goldy-Gorman-Edman-Arenado-Soto-Bader-O’Neill for 2023 with only Bader gone for 2024. Soto won’t break the bank regardless for the next two years. There’s still plenty of money to upgrade the staff with a guy like Bassitt or Manaea then.
Again, I am not saying the trade has to happen. But it’s simple fact that they aren’t going to get a 4+ win improvement from any other two trades they could make, let alone one.
That’s the logic.
My logic would be if you want to trade multiple top prospects then trade for an elite ace pitcher. If one is not available now then do it in the offseason. One in which you have a better chance to keep long term.
From John Denton of MLB.com:
Sure, the short-attention-span, instant-gratification crowd says go for Soto now. But how about in three years when the 6-foot-5 hitting machine Walker is contending for NL MVP Awards? Or when Winn is doing his best Shohei Ohtani impression as a shortstop/100 mph-throwing reliever?
The Cardinals have been able to stay consistently viable for years because of the success Mozeliak and director of scouting Randy Flores have had in mining the MLB Draft for young talent. Would it be worth putting a tourniquet on the lifeblood of the franchise for potentially just 2 1/2 years of control of Soto? Would a franchise that refused to match the Angels’ offer of $240 million for Pujols 11 years ago be obligated to shell out $500 million for Soto after surrendering such a bounty?
Clearly, the long-term viability of the Cardinals as a consistent contender is at stake. Get this one right and the Cards might have the perfect Pujols replacement in Soto. Hit this one on the sweet spot and St. Louis could crush a home run as majestic as Soto’s 520-foot blast in the 2021 Home Run Derby or his 482-foot cloud in this year’s Derby. But get it wrong, in essence swinging and missing, and they will almost certainly be paying a steep cost for years to come.
Let’s think this through…. if they are going to give up Walker, Libby, (Winn and Herrera are off the table in my opinion) etc what young pitchers are out there? Not 1.4 years of Castillo, Montas, etc, but 3.5+….
Walker for Gallen?
Like I said in my post, you might have to do it in the offseason. That would potentially open it up to all of the other 29 teams.
I guess I must have missed something. Why all this excited hoo-ha about Juan Soto? Is there some report he might come to STL? What source? Or is all this just idle speculation and wishful thinking by the bored fan-hood?
The first thing is to look at the offense and see if you really badly need another bat. O’Neill has been out, but
was a real force last season. He needs to be healthy and productive. Bader needs to get back into the lineup and provide spark with his defense, speed on the base paths, and unbridled enthusiasm. Gorman is going through learning how to be a productive and consistent major leaguer. He could be a future All Star. Same with Carlson. Even DeJong has been showing signs of improvement at Memphis. Has hit 14 home runs and driven in 47 in only 207 plate appearances. Even with all the issues and inconsistencies, the Cards are tied for 6th in the major leagues in runs scored.
Surprising?We need pitching, pitching, and more pitching.
We need pitching, pitching, and more pitching.
I agree bccran.
Let’s think this through…. if they are going to give up Walker, Libby, (Winn and Herrera are off the table in my opinion) etc what young pitchers are out there? Not 1.4 years of Castillo, Montas, etc, but 3.5+….
Walker for Gallen?
There are a few that come to mind.
Wheeler
Cease
FriedBut what about the big enchilada himself, Sandy Alcantara? What if Mo made a move to bring him back? Think about it this way:
If the Cardinals said we are trading away Walker, Winn, Burleson, Liberatore, and whoever else, would you want 2 1/2 years of Soto or 5 1/2 years of Alcantara?
If Carlson is included in the trade then who is going to play CF? It’s my understanding that Bader has that plantar fascitis and who knows what that means for him.
Would would play CF for us?
And another question……I keep hearing about Walker but what about Burleson? Isn’t he a top rated prospect as well that is tearing it up at AA?
r/Esteemed Rat
I wouldn’t trade Walker for anyone short of a bonafide superstar. He’s a safe bet to take the mantle from Goldy as the 1B in 2025. But even Goldy is not as good as Soto, and Walker would have to really exceed excel to match Goldy’s production. It’s possible, though.
There isn’t a pitcher on the market I’d trade Walker for, and that includes Alcantara.
Our offensive problems are not lack of middle of the order bats, it is that the younger players filling out the lineup need to become more consistent and take better ABs against better pitchers. Mo will use resources, prospects and dry powder, to get quality MLB proven pitching. I don’t know what he will do about a catcher since it depends on A} what they currently think of Herrera, B) what might be available and C) what resources Mo has left after addressing the pitching need.
Maybe it’s best to see what pieces aren’t necessarily important for the future. Looking longer term.
Bader – Free agent after 2023
O’Neill – Free agent after 2024
Goldy – Free agent after 2024
Edman – Free agent after 2025
DeJong – Free Agent after 2025
Knizner – Free agent after 2025
Carlson – Free agent after 2026
Donovan – Free agent after 2026
Yepez – Free agent after 2026
Arenado – Free agent after 2027IMHO Goldy, Arenado. Carlson, Edman, Gorman, and Donovan are your core. Add to that Burleson, Walker, and Winn.
Possible tradeable pieces for pitching help? Bader, Sosa, Knizner, Herrera, DeJong, Nootbaar, Capel, Baker, Gomez, Nunez, etc.
Can somebody post what exactly Walker and Burleson’s stats are at the moment? And are they both in AAA? Or is Walker in AA?
Burleson, 23, 6’2″ 212, L/L, AAA, 311 AB, 106 H, 16 2B, 1 3B, 16 HR, 21 BB, 51 K, .341/383/.553. Serviceable in LF long term probably best at 1B, compared to Lance Berkman.
Walker, 20, 6’5″ 220, R/R, AA, 280 AB, 85 H, 21 2B, 3 3B, 8 HR, 37 BB, 74 K, .304/.392/.486. Plays 3B, don’t know a whole lot about his D, talk of moving him to different positions with Arenado at 3B, bat has been compared to Goldschmidt.
Burleson is probably a DH. Walker is probably a DH with the currently defensive alignment, although he may have a shot to play OF.
The Cardinals “pitching problems” are overblown, IMO. It’s a management problem, primarily. Wittgren is gone but if you could rid yourself of McFarland and VerHagen, and Matz isn’t complete trash, you have a decent staff then. I don’t care if it’s Oviedo, Fernandez, Whitley, Thompson, Liberatore…it’s got to be better than the -2.8 WAR from those other guys. If you even got 0 from that quartet, the Cards would have a top 10 staff.
At this point I’d rather Mo go after a reliever and stand pat since we have an easy schedule, if he’s not going to make a legit splash.
Burleson, 23, 6’2″ 212, L/L, AAA, 311 AB, 106 H, 16 2B, 1 3B, 16 HR, 21 BB, 51 K, .341/383/.553. Serviceable in LF long term probably best at 1B, compared to Lance Berkman.
Walker, 20, 6’5″ 220, R/R, AA, 280 AB, 85 H, 21 2B, 3 3B, 8 HR, 37 BB, 74 K, .304/.392/.486. Plays 3B, don’t know a whole lot about his D, talk of moving him to different positions with Arenado at 3B, bat has been compared to Goldschmidt.
To me Walker’s stats don’t indicate the 2nd coming of Roberto Clemente, or whoever. Why does everyone think he’s got superstar written all over him?
Burleson’s .341 average sure turns my head. And he’s got more homeruns and doesn’t strikeout as much.
From what I am seeing here I think we’d be better off keeping Burleson. But I am sure some folks on here are more knowledgeable than I am about such matters.
r/Esteemed Rat
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