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Because a GM like him needs a lot of resources. The Reds don’t have it. I always thought it was a bad match and an odd place for him to go.
Walt reminds me of Dombrowski and Epstein. Give them a lot of resources and they will field a dynamic winning team because they aren’t afraid to use the resources and be bold but they aren’t the types of GM’s to rely on the farm system and building from within only.
I don’t buy the “resources” bit. Of course, any team can compete with a ton of money and an owner willing to spend. It also helps to have one of the top couple right handed hitters in the history of baseball slugging away to build around.
That said, the Cards were in a bad way when Walt was canned. Mo and Luhnow turned the ship around and made this team a consistent winner for the last ten years AND a solid farm system to boot. Maybe Walt could have had similar results on the field overall but I would wager a lot that it would include more losing seasons.
Walt likely went to Cincy because he had worked with the ownership group previously. Maybe that was his only offer, but that is speculation. If he was viewed to be one of the game’s best GMs, however, one of the deep-pocketed teams would have gone after him. No evidence that happened like with Billy Beane, for example, or Friedman moving from TB to LAD.
Dombrowski (now) and Epstein (all along) work for teams with huge financial resources behind them. Epstein has an especially bad history in free agency, but has the support to spend his way out of trouble, and the titles are proof. Most teams cannot do that.
Wiley
That’s a good question Brian. My answer is this; I’m attributing any trade involving acquiring minor league talent to Girsch. Why? Because Mozeliak rarely ever did it. Mike Girsch comes in and all of the sudden we have Cabrera, Williams, Gallegos, Elledge, Capel, Torres, Munoz, Schrock etc. Not deals Mo would bother with. Mike on the other hand, apparently has a passion for the minor leagues and knows it’s players inside-out. I’d bet my house he’s behind these deals, so let’s give the man his due.
Has Mozeliak ever been the GM when we were in “sell mode”? I don’t think so, but he has acquired minor league talent before – Freese (Edmonds), Grichuk (Freese), Herrera (Rzep), Martinez (Cruz), Gant (Garcia), Ellis (Garcia)
I highly doubt that Mo would have acquired McGwire, Edmonds, Rolen, Walker, etc…. Walt made those big moves and was able to keep most of those players long term. Mo would have waited around to see if some kid in AA developed for us or some garbage idea like that. The only reason he did the Goldy deal is because he is under pressure for 3 seasons in a row of no playoffs.
Well I see I opened a big can or worms….who wants to go ice-fishing???
“Because Mozeliak rarely ever did it” Pads, please note the ‘rarely’. I didn’t say never and the players you listed were mostly major league ready and over a 7 year period. We have acquired a wealth of young players since Girsch took over the GM role.
Having said that, Brian, of course Mozeliak would have had to have been in on the conversations and approval of the deals. What I’m saying is that Girsch is the man doing the back ground work, negotiating and finalizing deals for approval. The amount of young talent brought in since Mike came aboard is astounding and he’s not getting any credit for his work. Its time Mozeliak manned up and gave Girsch the credit he deserves for all these deals, like a real man would.
Nyquist I thank you for the support. Don’t expect Brian to ever support Walt Jocketty. Having had ‘discussions’ previously about Walt with Brian, I guarantee you he will always take the offensive against Jocketty. He is not in his fan club. And I agree with the fact W.J. failed in Cincy because he didn’t have the resources to succeed, plus, at that point, other GM’s were onto him about his trading bales of hay for bars of gold. He did make some other GMs look bad in those deals.
gsCottar, Mozeliak couldn’t carry Walt’s ‘Jock’etty strap when it comes to wheeling and dealing for star players. That’s a fact. Johnny-boy relies on the heads of his other departments to be the best in the business to make his inactions look good.
Didn’t mean to leave you to the last Bob Reed, however, Luhnow was so good at what he did/does, one of our people went to jail for trying to steal intel from him after he left. The thing is, I was a big fan of Jocketty and hated Luhnow at first for coming in and causing Walt’s departure, but Jeff turned me around into becoming one of his biggest supporters. I confess, the man’s a freaking genius and if you didn’t believe that from what he did here is St.Louis then you should surely recognize what a major impact he has had on two organizations. Seriously, look what he did in Houston while we tread water.
Sorry if I missed anybody. LOL
stlcard25, how was the team in bad shape when Walt left. We had just won a World Series, had 2 seasons of over 100 wins, had the MV3 boys; Edmonds, Rolen & Pujols. Jocketty drafted Albert the great and Yadier Molina (one of the greatest catchers of all-time). Signed Chris Carpenter for peanuts. Traded for guys like Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, Larry Walker, Darryl Kyle, Adam Wainwright, Mark Grudz(sp) etc. The team was in top form. I will agree that the scouting and farm system were somewhat in disarray, but we were still winning thanks to the genius of Walt Jocketty.
In Cardinal lure I hold these people in high regards:
1. Whitey Herzog – Most fun baseball you’ll ever see.
2. Walt Jocketty – His record speaks for itself. He had a deft trading knack.
3. Dave Duncan – What he could do with average pitchers was astounding.
4. Jeff Luhnow – What he did to revamp the whole drafting and player development was genius.
5. Mike Girsch – I’m ahead of everyone on this, but he’s the next ‘big’ thing.My general point on a lot of these assessments is that they are being made from a significant distance and the guys viewed to be wearing white hats and the ones wearing black hats are not nearly as clear as some are representing them to be. Everything and everyone do not fit in nice, neat categories.
Specifically, Walt did a great job for a long time. It wasn’t just good players, but bringing in TLR and Duncan to lead them. But, he was eventually left behind for many good reasons. We know how reluctant Bill DeWitt Jr. is to make major changes, yet the fact Walt’s firing occurred so quickly after a World Series title indicates how bad it had become internally.
To take one of your examples, perhaps if Walt would have been able to recognize Luhnow’s “genius” and foster it instead of fighting it, he might have stayed on. Because he did not, the strife between those driving change and those resisting it was literally tearing the organization apart from the inside out. I know this to be fact.
Luhnow has done a fine job in Houston, but let’s not forget the heavy price they paid over four long years to get there.
106 losses
107 losses
111 losses
92 losses
IMO, his legacy will depend on what he can do after this generation of players move on. Can he sustain?During that same period, the Cards won a World Series, played in another and reached two more LCS over those four years.
Jocketty’s “record” included one playoff appearance in his first five years.
stlcard25, how was the team in bad shape when Walt left.
He left the team with a losing record (he was fired in 2007) and no farm system. The World Series in 2006 was smoke and mirrors, after an 83 win regular season. I’ll give you that he made some good trades and the team fared well from 2000-06, but Pujols made him look like a genius.
The team has never had a losing record under Mozeliak. Not once. That people still give the guy zero credit mystifies me.
This from wikipedia:
During his time as Cardinal GM, the Cardinals compiled seven National League Central Division championships (1996, 2000, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006), two National League Championships (2004 and 2006), and one World Series Championship (2006). The Cardinals had seven straight winning seasons under Jocketty, including 100+ win seasons in 2004 and 2005. Jocketty has been named the Executive of the Year in MLB three times, in 2000, 2004, & 2010.
In my opinion Walt was one of the best Cardinal GM’s of all time if not the best. Yes his run came to a not so glorious end but his record speaks for itself nonetheless.
Wily, I agree with you about Girsch although maybe for different reasons. I’ve been singing his praises for awhile now. While trading for good prospects may have been his doing I really believe Girsch has a fire in his belly and an inner aggression that this front office desperately needs. There is no way for me to prove that but it is just an impression I get from him from some of the things he says and the way he goes about his business. Of coursde he can only do so much right now because of where he is on the organizational chart but I would feel MUCH better about things if he was in charge instead of Mo.
Perfectly said Brian, I agree whole-heartedly. Walt’s stubbornness made him the maker of his own demise.
Welcome back gscottar and thanks for the support. In my opinion, Jocketty belongs in the HOF.
stlcard25, I believe Dal Maxvill left the cupboards bare and it takes awhile to turn an organization around. As for Mo, his #1 skill is his ability to spin-doctor. Yes, he has a terrific record as a GM, but he never had the killer instinct to make the big deal at the trade deadline. Every off-season he’d tell the fans why we didn’t win and what needed to be done for the next year and then he’d sit on his thumbs and do minor adjustments. Very frustrating for a spoiled Cardinal fan.
The Astros lost 111 games in 2011, the year before the Astros lost 112 in 2012 after Luhnow was hired. Some of the tanking had already been done in previous years. They lost 111 in 2013 and 92 in 2014 before going 86-76 in 2015.
DeWitt was responsible to some degree for Walt’s anger by making the Luhnow move in a vacuum, bypassing the chain of command. Walt wasn’t alone to consider it wrong. The entire baseball world piled on. I remember well the contempt expressed by members of the press. Walt was wrong for not eventually getting on board. One in his position should judge people by what they accomplish than their background or personal issues.
The thing I have never understood. Walt was front and center with the Latin program when with the Athletics. And after leaving the Cardinals has bee agressive in pursuing the Latin players. Yet the entire program was cancelled while he was GM with the Cardinals. A big mistake. Took us years to get back in the game.
As for Martinez, I don’t understand why there is not a marked for him in the AL. The guy can really hit. Possibly they know the Cardinals really need to move him to make room for players with more all-around ability and are hoping to get him on the cheap. If someone gets desperate for a DH we could still get a good value for him. I would rather keep him as a pinch hitter, spot starter and DH in the inter-league games than give him up for a minimum return. Cardinals need to be patient. A serious injury or production failure with an AL DH could put them in the drivers seat. This may drag out until at least the trade deadline next summer.
What happened to Jose Martinez in this thread?
Same as in life…..nothing!
Personally, I’d keep his bat. Once Fowler proves he’s done, we have a right-fielder. Sure he’s not great defensively or the brightest bulb in the box, but he’s a natural with the bat and let’s face it, this team had Lonnie ‘skates’ Smith playing left for years and Simba catching for a decade. Jose is not that bad defensively compared. Okay, maybe he is, but off the bench he’s a plus and technically he made 0 errors in the outfield last year.
News item: “Dim Bulb” Martinez leads relief efforts in Venezuela, brightening lives of many disadvantaged people.
https://www.mlb.com/news/jose-martinez-cardinals-team-up-for-venezuela/c-295515244
Obviously if Jose Martinez has this kind of character, plus he’s always upbeat, those are even more reasons to keep him. I say we keep him, just don’t play him at 1b a lot. He’s too valuable to just give away for a relief pitcher or something of that ilk. If we get to the playoffs in 2019, I want his bat in the lineup to produce and represent all us dim bulbs out here.
Just as Amelia Earhart was born to fly high above the clouds and Peter Boardman to traverse this world’s highest peaks, Jose Martinez was born to do two things….DH and never ever to put on a fielding glove.
I agree with Wiley that Jose’s defense isn’t really all that bad. It’s just that, when he does make an error, it’s something that looks incredibly bad like the ball hitting him somewhere on the glove, and he has to run after it to pick it up, with all that happening in front of thousands and thousands of fans. But most of the time he gets the out.
I don’t know, Mudville?…..Jose is pretty much Bad News Bear bad with the leather. I know I’ve never seen a worse ML fielder. I challenge anyone to name a worse professional defender in the game’s existence …..come on….I dare you! With this being said, I love the guy!
Since you asked, Pugs, I checked the defensive numbers at Fangraphs (because they’re so easily sortable).
There are 177 players in MLB history with a negative 100 runs or worse, per F-G metrics. Ranking them by negative runs per 600 plate appearances, The clear worst two are Brad Hawpe at -22 runs/600, and Danny Tartabull at -21. Third worst ever is Hidecki Matsui at -18.
Before you bring him up, Pugs, Dr. Strangeglove Dick Stuart averaged a -16. Stuart was atrocious, yes. But not the worst, apparently.
Jose Martinez has thus far averaged -14 runs per 600 PA’s — but then, he still has his age-related decline phase to come. We know you can do it, Jose! Catch some of those guys!
But let’s move on to a happier subject.
As for batting, Jose currently sports a terrific career 130 wRC+, a number he shares with such notables as Tim Salmon, Bucketfoot Al Simmons, Toy Cannon Jimmy Wynn, Carl Yastrzemski, Pete Reiser, Christian Yelich, and the great Parisian Bob Caruthers, the ancient Cardinal who was baseball’s best pitcher at age 21 and best hitter at age 22.I won’t forget when Dan Hayes asked Jose during an onfield interview if Jose’s Dad ever gave him advice on hitting. Jose’s response was ‘He told me I better hit the straight ones, because the other ones, they might give me trouble.’
Rays sign Avisail Garcia, a rhb, for DH and corner outfield. 3.5mil with 2.5mil in incentives.
How is Bozo not a better, more affordable fit, with 4 seasons of control? Is his D so horrible other teams won’t even consider him?
Or do you think the asking price is too high? Very odd because Garcia isnt close to the hitter Bozo is.
He was both, but mostly a Brown and a Brooklyn Groom. However, those early Browns eventually became Cardinals. This heads right into the debated 1882-1891 American Association period, which most (except the teams themselves) recognize as part of their history. The Cardinals state their team began in 1892, which was Caruthers’ last season, yet those prior player stats are included in the MLB record books.
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