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It means that during Mozeliak’s ENTIRE ten year tenure, the Cardinals have only traded in a ratio of more than one prospect for one major league player one time.
That was the 2009 trade for Matt Holliday.
Every other trade orchestrated by Mozeliak has seen an equal number of players going both ways.
.. A fact which allows us to accumulate a lot of talent.
Knowing when to break type is quite difficult. Stanton qualifies. So do several others.
… I still wish we did it more often.
According to the reports, both the Cardinals and Giants have proposals on the table that the Marlins will accept. So what’s the hold up? Is it that Stanton just can’t make up his mind? That seems pretty unlikely given that he has had weeks to think about it. My guess is that he doesn’t want to go to either place. And if that’s the case, the Marlins ownership and front office must be going ballistic.
If the Cardinals can get Yelich or Ozuna from the Marlins, then get Calome and Longoria from the Rays, they will have as good a chance as any to win their division.
The holdup is that Stanton is waiting for the Dodgers to get involved. That is what this has been about from the get go. I think things will be resolved by either the end of this week or at the winter meetings next week.
I would prefer to have Yelich than Ozuna. He is much more athletic and just now starting to reach his potential.
According to FanGraphs, Jedd Gyorko and Evan Longoria had roughly the same 2.5 WAR last year (keep in mind, the error term is roughly +/- 2 WAR).
Marcell Ozuna was 4.8, Christian Yelich was 4.5 and Randall Grichuk was 1.4.
The biggest upgrades the team can make, position wise, are still the outfield, even if we don’t get Stanton. Go for the biggest upgrades, not marginal/negligible upgrades.
I prefer Ozuna over Yelich, because he is a middle-of-the-order bat, which is what the Cardinals need. The asking price, in terms, of prospects, should also be lower because his higher salary and few years of control.
@Brian – I agree, it allows us to accumulate talent. But as we have seen the last two years, if all you have are average players, you will have an average team.
Take advantage of the fact that the Cardinals could spend up to the payroll limit if they wanted to, unlike nearly all other small market teams (not saying that is prudent, just that they have more opportunities than teams like KC, PIT, MIL, etc). Use the depth to make upgrades once in awhile.
Too often, people applaud management for their fiscal conservatism rather than their attempts to put a championship team on the field. If the Cardinals don’t know how to draft for star position players, they have to either trade for them or overpay in free agency. If you trade for them, you have to give up more than one prospect at a time, that’s the market now.
… That last by cardinals2016 about covers it.
I will say that some moving around might make things different though.
Say the blue jays wanted wong straight up for donaldson… Move gyorko to second where his bat plays a little better and he is maybe a 3.0 WAR guy (wong was roughly 2.0 depending on who you ask).
Worth it? Depends on if you can sign him and if you think seferina can handle second in a couple years. We also have sosa and edman.
Donaldson was about 4.5-5 WAR… Game changers are hard to find.
Is he worth wong and his controlled contract? Eh…. I would probably do it if we get stanton. I’d probably do a few things.
Oh I agree…. Trust me I KNOW we need to learn how to give up players in trades. We have a ton of 2-4 WAR talent and players… That’s all well and good until the rubber meets the road and you need the straw that stirs the drink ( the 5-10 WAR guys).
Reyes could be one of them. IMO you need 3-4.
Guys we have who can be those 5-10 WAR players in any given year :
Kelly
Reyes
Pham (he came out of nowhere) especially in center…. That’s about it. That’s why when people say trade kelly I look at them like they are dumb. One injury and yadi doesnt get his job back. And yadi isnt getting any younger.
Stanton is obviously one. Donaldson is. There’s a reason these guys cost a lot… They’re hard to find.
Yes, I think Gyorko’s bat plays much better as a 2B than a 3B.
I don’t know if Toronto needs a 2B, I think they need outfielders more than anything.
Trade Wong to the Angels, Grichuk + Angels prospects to Toronto, Donaldson to STL
Edit: Probably should have at least one Angels prospect coming back to STL, but….not like they are worth much (unless they want to give us Maitan)
I like Kelly and understand the argument against trading him. However, is his future potential being overvalued as a 5-10 WAR player? Across all of MLB in 2017, the top catchers in WAR were Gary Sanchez and Buster Posey at 4.07 and 4.02, respectively. They were ranked #60 and #63 among all MLB players.
Catcher WAR values are long term screwed up and good defense is severely understated. It is IMO hard to come up with a numerical value for the pitching aspects and shutting down running games.
People just didnt run against yadi for years. What is that worth compared to a guy who throws out way more runners but has a ton more bases stolen against?
Imo it is fair to say that 4 WAR from a catcher is probably closer to 6 (probably more if they have good defense like posey).
I am not familiar with Alex Pavlovic of NBC Sports Bay Area, but he tweeted this today.
This can obviously change as it goes, but Giants expect a Stanton decision by the end of the week. I’m hearing they continue to view Dodgers, not Cardinals, as biggest threat.
Cardinals2016
According to FanGraphs, Jedd Gyorko and Evan Longoria had roughly the same 2.5 WAR last year (keep in mind, the error term is roughly +/- 2 WAR).I trust Longoria to put up a higher value (4+ in 2015 and 2016) than Gyorko in 2018. Plus, if we kept Gyorko as a super-sub, he would push the overall value up across the infield. Or we could sell high on him in a trade getting back good value. Think about it as replacing Gyorko’s 2.5 with Longoria’s 2.5 and either substantially making the bench better or getting an elite closer-type return in the process.
I think acquiring Cozart and utilizing DeJong as a super sub is more practical in terms of acquisition cost and perhaps even salary.
Regardless, the biggest increase in win expectations comes from replacing Piscotty & Grichuk, not anyone on the infield.
Cardinals2016
Participant
Too often, people applaud management for their fiscal conservatism rather than their attempts to put a championship team on the field.
1. If the Cardinals don’t know how to draft for star position players, they have to either trade for them or overpay in free agency.
2. If you trade for them, you have to give up more than one prospect at a time, that’s the market now.
1. Do you know which player will be a star position player? Has any “known” star position player been available to the Cardinals to draft at the positions they have drafted over the last 7-8 years?
2. How many quality prospects were available for the Cardinals to trade before the 2017 season? Who were they?
Seems two supersubs on the infield, DeJong and Gyorko, would be a bit rich. My hope is that if they feel the need to move DeJong off short, they get the strongest defender at the position possible, with offense a lower concern.
If Stanton really wanted to play for the Giants imho he would have approved the trade already unless he was either waiting for the Dodgers to jump in at the last minute or use the Cards offer to try and up the Giants offer…there’s a part of me that just wishes that he’d make up his mind already…regardless of which offer he accepts…
@forsch – off the top of my head, Nolan Arenado and Giancarlo Stanton were both drafted in the 2nd round, which means they were available when the Cardinals drafted…
Now, you seriously think the Cardinals had no trade chips last year to trade for Ozuna? Ozuna was trade bait by the Marlins two years in a row!!!
@Brian – I don’t envision Gyorko being in the super sub role if they acquire Cozart. Your starters would be Matt Carpenter (1B), Wong (2B), Cozart (SS), Gyorko (3B). Your bench would be DeJong & G Garcia (2B/SS/3B) and Jose Martinez (1B).
The reason Cozart would be preferable to Longoria is – have you checked our shortstop depth? After DeJong, you have Greg Garcia, then……nobody on the 40 man. And Mejia and Tofar can’t hit.
Gyorko can’t play SS. Valera can’t play SS. Sosa just finished High A.
OK, thanks for the explanation. I did not consider that and you may not find many who agree with you about starting Gyorko over DeJong.
Well, since Arenado and Stanton were drafted in the 2nd round, that means at least 29 teams didn’t realize they were going to be star position players. Kind of hard to blame the Cardinals for that.
There were 75 players drafted ahead of Stanton and I don’t recall anyone saying the Cardinals should have drafted him in that draft. 58 players were drafted of Arenado and I don’t recall anyone saying we should have drafted him instead of Shelby Miller.
Almost every draft would have been drafted differently if a team could see into the future to see what a player would become 8-10 years after being drafted. Any star player drafted after the first 15 picks is more luck than skill.
Who did the Cardinals have to trade for Ozuna?
Listening to a Craig Mish webcast. He says he has heard that Stanton provided the Marlins a list of teams that he would accept a trade to – and neither the Cards nor Giants are on that list. He does not know why Stanton is taking so long but believes the chances of both teams are declining each day, especially the Cards. His current guess on odds is 40-40-20 Dodgers-Giants-Cards.
He thinks Dee Gordon will be moved the week after Stanton. He knows where but not ready to say yet. He also thinks Ozuna will be traded, but along with another big contract like Tazawa or Prado. Ozuna is a Boras client with short time left before free agency. Yelich will stay with the Marlins.
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