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“Was never a Woodford fan as I thought his minor league peripheral numbers would not translate well. But he hás proven me wrong and I hope he continues tô make me eat crow.”
Simply put, CC, Jake left the ball over the middle of the zone much less often in 2022 than he did the year before. Thus he elicited a lot less hard contact. I don’t expect any more 2.23 ERA’s in his career, but there’s no reason right now that he can’t be a solid swingman used in mid-to-high-leverage long relief, or in spot starts when necessary.
Since Sept. 1 of 2021, there’s only 8 MLB relievers with as many innings as Jake Woodford and a lower ERA. And for those who think ERA is a lesser form of reality, only 10 relievers have as many innings with a lower FIP, also. Needless to say, none of those other highly effective and durable bullpenners were used as meaningless garbagetime mopup men.
“Do you guys really think giving all those starts to those guys was Ollie’s decision?”
However much Marmol’s specific input in specific situations, he’s the manager and therefore he’s responsible for all of the good and bad decisions. He’s where the buck stops.
“We won 93 games last year so something is working.”
Agreed. What worked last year was Mozeliak had the best trade deadline of any GM. He rescued Marmol from his most misguided impulses by acquiring a pair of starting pitchers who combined to contribute 23 starts and an ERA just over 2.50. At the end of July, the Cards were on pace for the second-worst record of Mozeliak’s tenure (85-77). That was all Ollie.
“Isn’t keeping runs off the board the objective…not how many guys you can strike out?”
Yup. That’s how the game is played. And here’s a stat for you. The Birds had 10 different pitchers make 7 or more starts in 2022. The 5 with the highest strikeout rates combined for an ERA of 4.55. Meanwhile the 5 with the lowest strikeout rates combined for an ERA of exactly 3.50. Obsessing about strikeouts or “swing-and-miss stuff” is as knuckleheaded as obsessing about popups. Strikeouts and popups both retire the batter with nobody on base possibly advancing, right? But you never, ever, ever hear about any team fixating on popups, do you? Because that would be nonsense. Well, same thing with strikeouts. It’s nonsense.
It’s entirely reasonable to prefer strikeouts or popups. But those skills are only part of what happens on the field. The bottom line is to Get. People. Out.
Thanks, Euro. I looked at the schedule, but didn’t bother to count the games for each opponent. However, like I mentioned above, there were two long stretches in which not a single division opponent were present. At any rate, the MLB schedule now takes on a look that’s similar to the NBA or NFL, which I suppose is what the kids who run MLB are attempting to achieve with their latest endeavor. If that’s indeed the case, they did a good job.
Mo saved himself by acquiring better pitchers. If Q and Monty had been here the first half, Ollie would have played them just as he did the second half.
Laying the first half at Ollies feet is hogwash Bob. Your Ollie hate is shining so bright you are making replies way below your usual excellent level.
At times, a K or a pop up is about the only thing that’ll save a team’s backside and preserve a W, but those times are rare. It’s my view that the swing and miss concept should be reserved for the late inning BP guys who often enter a tied or 1 run ballgame. It’s obvious to me that the best SP’ers may possess the ability to induce a K when sorely needed, but focus their attention more on economically recording outs in order to work deep into a game.
There are very few if any people on here who don’t see that the Jake Woodford situation was handled poorly and unfairly and worst of all it hurt the team! The bosses have to see this also and this leads me to believe he will be given more of a chance than he was last year! If not he will be traded and in 2024 we will be saying we could have had Alcantara, Gallen and Woodford as our 1,2 and 3 but no!
Well, I appreciate all the viewpoints expressed, but I think the choice and usage of starters was fed to the bench from upstairs and Ollie complied. That is why Ollie is still here and why Maddux left.
I thought Marmol did a more than decent job during the ’22 regular season, however my overall impression has changed after witnessing the surreal sort of debacle that took place in the post-season. I certainly do not harbor any sort of feelings that could be termed “hate” towards the guy, however I no longer have much confidence in his abilities as the manager of a Big League ballclub. That impression could certainly change. It was his first season and he had no practical, hands on experience as a field manager in the Big Leagues. Now he does. It’s my genuine hope that he learns from the mistakes he made during that experience and improves over the course of his sophomore season. If he doesn’t, in all likelihood he’ll soon be commiserating with the two Mike’s.
Nice Steve. That would have been a pretty good 1,2,3.!
Alcantara, Gallen and Woodford, plus would have a couple more good starters and the team would be
way better off.Oli doesn’t acquire, promote or demote. He doesn’t have that authority.
He’s rookie manager number three, put in place to follow the FO script. If he doesn’t, rookie manager number four is on speed dial.
I give Oli a neutral grade for 2022. He did as much good as he did bad. The second half roster additions, along with Pujols and Co. getting hot the second half, turned the season around.
Steve60, I hope your right about Woodford getting more time, I think he can certainly help the club!
The Woodford situation is the Backup QB syndrome to a T. Our #3 starter? LOL. I hope the same people beating the Woodford drum are also high on Dakota Hudson, who’s been markedly better than Woodford at every stop.
Woody is a useful member of the staff who should fill up some innings with decent pitching in 2023. He certainly won’t run a 1/43 HR/FB ratio again, but hopefully the rest of the results stick. What he’s absolutely not is the savior of the staff.
Agreed. What worked last year was Mozeliak had the best trade deadline of any GM. He rescued Marmol from his most misguided impulses by acquiring a pair of starting pitchers who combined to contribute 23 starts and an ERA just over 2.50. At the end of July, the Cards were on pace for the second-worst record of Mozeliak’s tenure (85-77). That was all Ollie.
As for Marmol, it’s interesting that as the king of analytical minutiae on this site, Bob Reed, you’re so down on Marmol for doing exactly what you do for nearly every single Cardinal player and prospect every time you post.
I love the data, but it seems like you don’t actually believe that playing the stats will win you games in the long run, Bob.
I think Marmol has been fine…not perfect, but every great manager starts somewhere. I do not think it’s fair to blame Marmol for the roster of suck that Mo handicapped him with before the trade deadline. We have no idea what input he was giving Mo pre and mid trade season. There was clearly no way to bail us out internally, so they had to pull the plug on external upgrades.
Perhaps in 5-10 years we’ll see Marmol as the next Cardinal legend in the making…or perhaps not. I’m liking the start, though.
Agreed. What worked last year was Mozeliak had the best trade deadline of any GM. He rescued Marmol from his most misguided impulses by acquiring a pair of starting pitchers who combined to contribute 23 starts and an ERA just over 2.50. At the end of July, the Cards were on pace for the second-worst record of Mozeliak’s tenure (85-77). That was all Ollie.
Seriously? Was it Ollie’s desire to have a ragtag rotation for the first four months of the season? Apparently Mo had to save Shildt at the 2021 deadline also with rotation acquisitions. I am afraid your anti-Marmol bias is showing through here.
“Was it Ollie’s desire to have a ragtag rotation for the first four months of the season?”
In September of 2021, when the Cards needed a 5th starter, Mike Shildt went with Jake Woodford and found solid success.
In 2022, month after month, when the Cards needed a 5th starter, Ollie avoided Jake Woodford like a leper with bad breath. The so-called ragtag rotation was largely Marmol’s doing.The 13 starts that Marmol chose instead to give to a combination of Naughton, Hicks, Thompson, and Oviedo resulted in just 43.1 innings and a 6.65 ERA. That’s just 3.1 innings per start. I don’t know what your rebuttal is here, guys. It all seems straightforward: Marmol sabatoged the team for months by using unqualified starters over and over, when a better option was staring him in the face.
Of course Woodford is no savior. He’s a solid #4 starter who’s been bizarrely relegated by a marginal manager to mopup garbagetime eunuch. And in some seasons it wouldn’t be that big of a deal. But in 2022, it was a huge part of the Redbird mediocrity for four months.
Im not so sure “a better option was staring him in the face”.
How many of those 13 starts were with Woodford in the minors? Marmol doesn’t acquire, promote or demote, that would be the gm / PBO / boys upstairs.
How many of those 13 GS were during doubleheaders where Mo specifically brought up a player to make one of the two starts?
It’s your scenario so I’ll let you look it up, but 13 should be a low single digit number by now. I’m guessing.
Thank you. So Hicks made 8 of the 13 GS Bob referred to, and tagged it a Marmol decision. Nope.
Mo spent the winter talking about Reyes and Hicks getting the opportunity to start in 22′, and Hicks made the rotation out of ST.
Those 8 GS belong to Mo, that’s Mo script. In fact, I’m not sure Marmol was even hired yet! Regardless, Hicks as a starter belongs to Mo.
Down to 5 GS that Marmol “sabotaged” the first half. If Bob cares to, we will see how many of the remaining 5 GS were while Woody was in the minors.
Jj-cf just asking, not trying to start something, but if I am the manager and I have a pitcher in the minors I want to bring up for a start are you saying I can’t do that? I always thought if the manager wanted someone to start a game that was what was gonna happen! Are you saying what happens is Mo goes to Ollie and says here is who is starting this next game?
If those are the ground rules, if we’re going to give Mozeliak the blame for Marmol’s bad decisions, then logically we also have to give Mo credit for Marmol’s good decisions. All of them. Therefore we’re left with no means of evaluating Marmol whatsoever.
And if that’s the lens through which some Redbird fans wish to view the manager, that’s of course their prerogative — front offices exert more influence on managers than ever before, I have zero doubt. But again, for me the buck stops at the manager’s doorstep. I judge any and all managers by the sum of their strategies, Marmol included.
I very much doubt that there’s anything constructive left to say re this matter of 2022 managerial pitcher usage. Some of us will just have to agree to disagree.
Steve, I’m sure Mo listens to all the input across the organization. He’d be crazy not to.
Make no mistake who the boss is.
Mo inherited Tony LaRussa as his manager when Mo was named rookie GM. Now we have the opposite of TLR. Three of them and counting. For me, that’s not coincidence, it’s a game plan.
If you were Oli, just recently hired as the youngest manager in mlb, and the GM who just canned Schildt for “philosophical diffefences” had been talking up Hicks to the rotation, who would you start when Flaherty couldn’t answer the bell out of ST?
Bob, you are one hell of a good poster. I look forward to reading your future replies on all topics.
If Mo is the boss and has final say on all of managers decisions I fear we are worse off than I thought! I am 62 and retired and getting by and I would never manage a team that I didn’t make all final calls, not even for all that money! Mo has some some good things especially at the trade dead lines in 2011, 2022 and the year we got Holiday but I trust him to keep us right where we are, about 6 or 7 out of a 15 team league! I want to be 2 or 3! Lol!
Well, mine is just one fans opinion, and I’ve been wrong a lot. As you can see, my two cents is only worth one cent! (the pic)
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