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stlcard25 – I will watch, I will cheer and I will eat crow if need be, but for those watching the last few years with Matheny and MO in charge, we are seeing the same issues. We have a lineup that strikeouts out way to much, batters that roll over and ground out weakly on outside pitches, starting pitching that struggles to get through 5 or 6 inning, misuse of a bullpen, and key decisions botched by a manager who should have cut his teeth at the single A level.
Look there’s plenty of places to complain about the manager, start a thread, but don’t clog up the game thread with this crap. Only Oxygem posted anything resembling a critical complaint about Matheny during this game.
What’s he supposed to do?
Fact – They signed a $14M closer and he is on the roster
Fact – Said closer has apparently been pitching all spring
Fact – Closer pitched rehab games and the FO said he was good to go.I’m not really sure how quickly Matheny got Norris up to save the inning, but are you saying he should have a guy warming up right when another takes the mound? Let’s have a little common sense here. Holland failed. This year is picking up right where last year left off with the “every game is a debacle” mentality…oh only when we lose of course.
The Pina intentional walk was obviously done to set up a double play. I don’t care how the pitcher is throwing, that’s an obvious move to make with 1 out. With your infield on the grass, as would be the case with runners at 2nd and 3rd, that positioning adds .150 points to a hitters average. Holland has to settle down and perform there.
No he doesn’t. Matheny needs to give him time. I don’t care how much he did on his own. He did not go through a full spring training. His first day in and matheny brings him right away. He had other options and closer or no not he needs time to acclimate.
Seriously Pads only a clueless FOOL would give a IBB and let a pitcher who can’t throw strike even stay in the game, if he going to stay with him there is ZERO reason to give the IBB because he was going to walk the guy anyway. MM Keeps showing how clueless he is game in and game out and he needs to go his stupidity has grown OLD!
The change that Maddux brought to the pitching staff in St. Louis is overtly telling his pitchers that its fine to pitch up in the zone. IMO, Mikolas and Leone, just to name two pitchers, would be a lot better off if they would keep the ball down. They’re both losing balls by throwing too many pitches in the top half of the zone. If they don’t start keeping the ball down, they won’t ever have much success.
Also, from what I can see so far, Munoz is not a reliable defender. His catches are not always clean, and his throws are not that accurate.
This was the kind of game that the Cards should have won.
This was the kind of game that the Cards could have won.This was the kind of game that a good team would have won.
Shoulda/coulda. These kind of games will add up and become the difference between a post-season contender and a full-season pretender.
The team that they run out there every day is just not too good.
I’m not overly worried about Holland. He basically had one week of game prep then he is thrown out there on a 30 degree night with no feel for the ball. He will get better.
What worries me is the offense, particularly the strikeouts. It is a very alarming rate. Also, this offense was predicated on Fowler and Carpenter getting on base and setting the table. They are both horrible right now. Inevitably we will have to move Carp to leadoff AGAIN to jump start him. This guy is killing me. He can’t play defense anywhere and can only hit in one spot in the lineup. Seems like a lot of trouble for almost $14M.
I was a bit surprised to see Holland come in for the 9th. It was a tough game to make your debut after a short spring training – tie game, cold weather. But then he must have looked good in his tune-up games at class A.
Still, a weak bullpen is one reason I felt our club would struggle. There is a good chance the ‘pen will get better as the season progresses. If Gregorson and Holland pitch like their career norms, and Norris, Tui and Lyons can be serviceable, we could have a strong bullpen by say June.
But then there is always the Matheny overuse/misuse factor at play. Right now it’s tough to be too harsh about that as there are really no strong options. Norris is about it. I really like Tui. He’s got a good fastball and that breaking pitch is awesome, but he needs to get better command of it. Once (if?) he does, he could be a standout closer.
Agree with comments here about needing to stretch the starters out whenever we can. You really want to get at least six innings from the starters, which gives some nice options over the last three innings. Trying to get more than 12 outs from a bullpen is a challenge, and doing it right now with our bullpen is almost a guarantee of additional runs.
The offense is not doing it’s part either. The top three hitters are all under-performing. Carpenter seems to have lost a lot over the last couple of years. Maybe all of the moving around on defense gets to him.
I would like to see a five man bench with one guy able to provide some punch on occasion. If the bullpen strengthens and we have four guys you can always count on, then maybe we can cut back to 12 pitchers and add a good bat to the bench.
I agree about the bullpen Mike. They will be fine when everyone gets healthy. For those who wanted to release Norris he and Hicks are currently the two best options we have.
Onyxgem
Seriously Pads only a clueless FOOL would give a IBB and let a pitcher who can’t throw strike even stay in the game, if he going to stay with him there is ZERO reason to give the IBB because he was going to walk the guy anyway. MM Keeps showing how clueless he is game in and game out and he needs to go his stupidity has grown OLD!
Have you ever seen Major League? He could’ve very well missed right out over the middle of the plate too.
NJ315
No he doesn’t. Matheny needs to give him time. I don’t care how much he did on his own. He did not go through a full spring training. His first day in and matheny brings him right away. He had other options and closer or no not he needs time to acclimate.
Why is that on Matheny? Holland had a 14-day contract stipulation that he could stay in the minors. Perhaps they should’ve used that time to get him up to speed. If your all-star closer is on the roster, you should be able to use him in that moment. Holland failed miserably unfortunately.
When Matheny goes to his ‘best’ relievers, he’s over-using them. When he goes the other route, he’s lambasted for using them at all. The guy can’t win with the fan base in this micro-armchair management
time. Why doesn’t the defense get called out or Mikolas or Lyons or Holland. No, this loss is solely on the one person that didn’t even play.I stated my opinion and you have yours. Obviously Holland failed. Matheny can’t win because he is a below average manager. You think he is a good manager. We can disagree. Matheny did not need to use Holland last night but he chose to.
Comments like this from Matheny make me hate him so much. His incompetence is infuriating.
Pads, well said. I don’t want Matheny as the manager but it guaranteed that he catches too much grief. Every loss is becoming a “what decisions did Matheny make that cost us the game”. Very little questioning during a game until something bad happens.
BHC, if Holland throws 1 pitch that Arcia grounds into a double play, things are totally different. The Cardinals signed Holland to be the closer. He didn’t come through last night. End of story.
and the last 2 years a lot of bad has happened. But to some people is never his fault. It is the players not performing or not having the right roster. Holland just got here no need to bring him in at the end he had to bring Norris anyway.
Forsch are you blind? I ask sincerely because I’m very nearsighted and have to wear to glasses as I can’t see anything past 2-3 feet infront of me with out them. I could clearly see Holland didn’t have the ability to even get the ball over the plate. 19 pitches and only 6 strikes. Please don’t insult my intelligence with that defense of Matheny.
NJ, I am not pointing this at you but there are about 3-4 posters who seem to blame Matheny for EVERYTHING and make sure to bring it up all the time.
Interesting. There 2-3 posters who seem to defend Matheny for EVERYTHING and make sure to run to his defense whenever there is criticism against him.
Agreed Onyxgem. 7 seasons and Matheny is still on training wheels. What defies logic is how Matheny is actually worse this year when the FO went out and hired Maddox and brought back Oquendo.
It’s always easy to second guess after the fact. When something turns out bad, it’s easy to say something else could have been done.
The complaining about Matheny, Mo and the owners is getting very old. All the Cardinals have done over the ownership of DeWitt is win. In 23 years, they have 4 losing seasons. Only 1 losing season since 2000. I feel the “greatest fans in baseball” are becoming “I’m entitled since I am a fan”.
It’s DeWitt’s team. He can do whatever he wants. As a fan, all I am entitled to is a choice whether I go to a game or not, or watch a game or not.
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