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I cannot stand 13 man pitching staff.How many times do the Cards have to be caught with a short bench because of carrying 13 pitchers? It makes more sense to carry another position guy with some versatilty (Valera or Munoz etc) instead of a bullpen guy who will probably just be a mopup guy.
I think it is a product of starters not going as deep into games and an increased focus on teams trying to win games with relievers in the middle innings.
The good news is that no one is locked into anything. If the Cards’ reworked bullpen takes hold and the rotation is stable, perhaps they back off the eighth reliever. However, at this relatively early point, I think we would all agree that the 2018 Cards offense looks stronger than their pitching.
Interesting you went with a 8 man bullpen when you were adamant just a few weeks ago in saying you believed the Cardinals when they indicated they would only use a 7 man bullpen start the season.
I thought I was very clear about the 7/8 bullpen question and how I think the Cards will deal with it in the article. I could have gone either way in the table, but chose to focus on the long-term rather than the interim.
Well the title through me off. I thought you would focus on the actual opening day roster. No biggie.
Anyways, I love the 8 man bullpen. Can’t wait for the extra-inning game where we have men on base, a hit would win the game, and John Brebbia steps to the plate because we have no-one else on the bench.
early on with the extra days off will allow for 7…seems to be that way every year…
I’d guess Munoz and Bader get the spots…with Voit getting the JMart spot if this groin thing i serious or if Carp isnt ready to go
Munoz vs Bader is an interesting conundrum but i’d go with Bader as id like Munoz playing a lot of infield at AAA and outfield…with BAder taking the traditional extra OF/CF role
I still woudl prefer to find a new home for Garcia and fill his spot with Munoz or a real backup SS…I think Garcia is fine and all but we have a lot of guys who could fill that role who have options…plsu Garcia i think could have nice value to a team with more need at 2b…he may even be a solid starter for a few teams at 2b
With Owings getting the super sub tag with AZ i wonder if we could pry him away…his versatility on the infield (SS/2b) and OF (CF) with good defense and high end SB threat legs…would be more valuable to me than Garcia’s left hand bat
oh well..babbling
It seems that the Cards have kept an eye on Owings since before the Peralta signing. Definitely Owings could use a change of scenery, ala Descalso.
Dunno. Arizona had a logjam there, but traded Brandon Drury to the Yankees earlier this spring. Owings is their depth guy and is valuable as an infielder/outfielder.
If the Cards decide they need to add that kind of player, they may already have him in Yairo Munoz. As folks may recall, he was part of the take for Piscotty and seems about ready for MLB. His defensive coverage is the same as Owings. He is hitting .360 in Florida and is tied for the team lead in HR and RBI – an early parallel to how Jose Martinez emerged last spring.
If the Cards are really, really sold on Munoz now, I guess they could trade away Garcia to make room, but I do not understand the logic of the scenario of them bringing in yet another player with a similar profile, such as Owings.
A segment of posters on this board go crazy when prospects are blocked by moves they consider questionable. This would be a double-down bad move to them since the Cards would likely have to give up a prospect or two just to get Owings. I suspect they will weigh in on this idea soon. 😉
P.S. For those who are members, I am continuing my roster prediction series by looking at other 40-man roster players’ chances of making the team. Munoz is prominently covered in the article I just posted this morning. Tomorrow I will review the non-roster invitees.
So Jags, am I really going to have to show again that statistically, both offensively and defensively, that Garcia is superior to Owings? It was true before last year and it proved true again last year. It is exasberated when you talk about batting against RH pitching where we need depth. If you look at just bWar on an adjusted 500 plate appearances, GARCIA’S WAR IS ABOUT 2.5 TIMES THAT OF OWINGS. I REPEAT – 2.5 TIMES THAT OF OWINGS.
The only advantage Owings has is he can play CF. But players to play CF is not something we lack.
I want to reinforce something that CC just touched on. Garcia is the only LH bat off the current projected bench. Both Munoz and Owings are RHH. This is important.
CC you didnt prove one thing to me last offseason about Owings being better than Garcia…i still dont agree and could care less about bWAR…the eye test along with plenty of other stats make me feel very confident in my opinion
Owings can play SS and CF which Garcia cant…and has better wheels…has good power..he provides power, speed, stolen base threat and insurance for SS much more than Garcia does…Garcia is a light hitting lefty who can get on base…every time he has been given extra exposure he has failed…Owings on the other hand was forced into starting last year and excelled at it until he got hit on the hand and injured his finger
Owings was injured last year (finger) AND their WAR was the same for the year .7..a
https://www.thebaseballcube.com/apps/compare.asp?Q=145860,147807&Y1=2017&Y2=2017&Group=false&Stats=
https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=10030&position=2B/SSHe played in less games but had more plate appearances, he bests Garcia in almost every category except OBP and walks…he strikes out more, but he hits for way more power and drives in runs…
When Owings played he played well…he played a lot of OF last year because Pollock was hurt, but he also played a lot of SS as well…and played a lot more of it than Garcia did…and he did it on a playoff team
as for him being left handed…sure that matters a bit…but with Valera as a switch hitting option that may be mitigated somewhat…also, should Carp not be playing 100% of the time he is also left handed..same goes for Wong…if Carp is really in a super sub role then that means he will be super subbing all over the place which means himself and Wong are left handed options for the bench at times…also should Fowler get rest he is a switch hitter
Garcia takes a walk…finds a way to get on base..he is great at it.i like him a lot..he even plays a good 2b IMO… but he has little to no power, and has no options and his SS ability isnt high enough for him to be in the role we have him in… if it was a different role and we didnt have a solid 3-4 guys who have a similar skill set waiting i might change my mind
-Kelly, Garcia, JMart, leaves you with need of a CF backup and SS backup…Bader or Munoz or Meija
-Kelly, Owings, JMart, leaves you with putting in whatever you want, we still have 2 backups at ever position at least…way more flexibility depending on what you may need or want…you could shuttle it depending on the series even…any player could be brought up and it wouldnt hurt us..so someone on a hot streak…need a power lefty like O’neill, maybe a 3rd catcher…maybe you want a speed demon….or someone is ailing and you want a glove only guyCC…I wont be bullied by your CAPS and snide dismissals into changing my opinion…nor with sharing it
I think an 8 man bullpen is foolish to start the season. Arms are as fresh as management controls when and how much they are pitched in ST. I find keeping Munoz for depth, and sending down Brebbia or Bowmann to the minors, if needed, or whoever else has options. Of course injuries, and perhaps trades could alter this as well. It sure seems they need to lessen the logjam of their similar relievers on the 40 man roster, it will continue to hamper moves. Gomber should start at Memphis, and Gonzalez, who looks like the best reliever candidate, but has little experience, ought to be the closer for Springfield. Sherriff looks like the first lefty called up.
Well the major problem of the bullpen is only Brebbia and Bowman have options. Gregerson, Norris, Leone, Tuivailala, Lyons, and Cecil have zero options. I wonder what would happen if one of those guys without options does bad (like Broxton). How long would it take the Cards to cut that player and release him if at all?
As a reference point, Broxton was released at the end of May. Another consideration is which pitchers are early in multi-year contracts vs. those on one-year deals or on the final year of a multi-year contract.
Snowflake, sorry if my trying to emphasize a point makes you feel bullied. That was not my intention.
In my world, playing well when you play is more important than how much you play. Owings played more. And he played worse. Below league average offensively (last year and career) Below league average defensively as a shortstop (last year and career – and trending downward). Below league average in CF (last year and career – and trending downward). Compared to Garcia who was below league average last year offensively (but better than Owings) and above league average for his career. Who is an above league average defensive shortstop (both last year and career – and trending upward).
Yes, Owings played more but not better. Yes, he can play CF but he does it poorly. Yes, he makes 5 times the money Garcia does (oops, that is not a plus is it).
BW, I don’t expect the CARDS to acquire Owings but rather that he needs a change from ARI and a better chance to play more on any other team. I think he could offer more than he has in a back-up roll. I guess I’d rather have GGarcia or Munoz on our team. Munoz is new to the system and has to prove he is a significantly better utility/PH than the guy holding that position for three years.
Owings’ name came up and this is my take on his situation.
So now Matheny is indicating he wants to start the year with 8 relievers (13 pitchers). I wonder if him and Mo have talked and come to this conclusion or whether MM is off the reservation.
I wasn’t there when he said that, but apparently he did. Nothing was set in concrete before and I guess it isn’t now, either. Still 2 1/2 weeks for things to change.
I really wish we had not signed Norris. Mayers has pitched so well that he deserves a 25 man roster spot. But barring injuries, the only way he makes the team is with 8 relievers, and Brebbia being sent down. Also, a good reliever might become available when teams make final cuts.
It isn’t only Mayers … we have way more than enough pitching at aaa to shuttle 3 or 4 guys and keep our bullpen fresh with 12 pitchers and an extra bench bat. Flaherty, Hudson, mayers, bowman, Reyes(later in the year), brebbia, sherrif, gant, ponce, helsley, and God knows I missed one or two.
Yeah yeah maybe some of them need to be starting every 5 or 6 days. So what? We’ve got give or take eight guys in aaa who could gobble up garbage innings and be happy shuttling due to the big league paycheck and benefits. They don’t have to be perfect to sit at the end of the bullpen. Just competent. And we’ve got more than enough to find competent arms for garbage time AND keep the extra bat around for late in the game.
The insistence on grabbing every bullpen arm available and leaving us shortbenched when we have such a huge built in advantage makes me want to cry inside and hit management upside the head. Hard.
I have a long list of things I can fault management with but the Norris signing isn’t one of them. He got 19 big league saves last year and is a proven commodity. Mayers got roasted at the big league level last year and is unproven beyond spring training. The internal option is not always best.
No it isnt… but having eight to ten internal options that will allow you to carry the extra bat and win 2 more games simply due to availability is better than any reliever. Literally any one.
The argument isn’t who is the better pitcher.
The argument is whether 13 pitchers is moronic when you have that many arms available that can shuttle. It is.
Well I agree with you there. The 13 pitcher bullpen has been the rage of MLB the last several years as specialization has mushroomed. Back in the day it was common for relievers to go at least 1 inning. Now it is shocking if a reliever gives you more than 1/3.
The way this rotation may pan out and Matheny. 13 pitchers might be the best idea. I’m not opposed to it.
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