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After the sweep at the hand of the Pirates and the overall pitiful performance so far in 2023 and with the entire season in jeopardy the question begs to be asked:
Is Marmol’s job in jeopardy?
r/Esteemed Rat
If someone said on Friday that things would have to be changed if we get swept by the Pirates this weekend, you would’ve had to agree. Well?
Marmol gets sent back to Memphis. Its not all his fault…. but that would be something. Or else Girsch gets traded.
I put on the game thread that it is time to make a change. That Friday night fiasco was a killer.
You can’t make wholesale player transactions, so it’s time to tell Ollie, “Sorry kid, but you can see the record for yourself. We gotta do something to see if this season is salvageable.”
I would go with Stubby as the interim field boss – let him run things the rest of the year and see where things stand at that point.
Well maybe. I don’t care for marmol so it wouldn’t bother me but I don’t feel this is on him. This goes back to the off-season. Now there were a few people saying what we had was ok and we should just wait n see. I wasn’t one of those. Well we waited and saw so here we are. Now can these guys turn it around, maybe wilder things have happened but sometimes you are what your record says you are. Sometimes it isn’t your year. I personally think a lot of changes need made including mind set but that’s just me.
Marmol probably should be replaced, if for no other reason to try to give the team a jolt, but I do not think all of this is his fault. Needless to say I have never been overly impressed with our front office since Jocketty left.
If Marmol is fired then his replacement would be our fourth manager since 2011. It is kind of like the person who is on their third or fourth marriage. Eventually you need to realize what the common denominator is.
I feel that Ollie has made a lot of questionable decisions. He had an all-star closer who got off to a rough start and Ollie pulled the trigger on him quick. Somehow he keeps thinking Gallegos is his closer and he is not. Gallegos doesn’t have the lights out stuff that Helsley has and doesn’t have a closer mentality. Quick triggers on Gorman, Donovan, Thompson and Walker who could have adjusted his swing in St Louis rather than Memphis. And he keeps putting Burleson out there who barely hits over the Mendoza line. And I could go on and on about his bullpen decisions like the time he went with Stratton in a pressure situation in a 1-0 game when his two bullpen guys did not pitch the night before.
The kind of knee jerk decisions that he/and the front office are making creates uncertainty among the players. They are not statistics they are real people with real emotions whose performance is often affected when they feel that they may not be treated fairly.
They were still platooning Gorman when he was among the leader leader in almost all offensive categories. Sometimes you have to let players, particularly young players have some time to adjust. If I remember right, Mike Schmidt hit below .200 his rookie season.
The front office is certainly complicit in at least the International Program where we have no home grown international players on the except Mercado who is a retread and Mikolas if you want to count him. We also have no home grown international players in the MLB or Baseball America top 100 list.
Randy Flores is the lone bright spot in the front office as even with low draft picks his picks sport on of the top cumlative positive WAR of any organization.
The one thing that makes you think a turn around is possible under a new skipper is our run differential. This is really a .500 club, that has a poorer than expected record.
Yeah, .500 is not all that great. But we are doing things to sabotage our record, and not doing little things to grab wins in close games. Some of that is poor on-field management.
Maybe a change in managers can light a fire, and someone other than Marmol will better utilize what he has and sneak away with more wins in close games.
Yessir…After today’s 2-1 loss the Cardinals are 6-12 in 1 run games. Whether or not it’s the fault of the manager is up for debate, but losing a lot of close games are always characteristic of a losing team and like it or not, the character of a losing baseball team is a direct reflection of that losing team’s field manager. It’s just the way it’s always been and will continue to be so with no exceptions.
Entirely off topic, but I just watched a show on one of the ESPN channels entitled “Uncivil War” which details both the ’77 and ’78 Yankees/Dodgers WS. For those who weren’t around or were too young to watch, I’d highly recommend it. And for those that watched, it’ll bring back some nice baseball memories. The Redbirds were lousy in those years, but I vividly recall really enjoying those two WS despite the fact that the NL team I was rooting for lost both of them. Lots of good games and interesting personalities involved between those two very good baseball teams. Pretty good show.
Edit; Our esteemed Rats will really like it because it shows his favorite player and later, manager, all sad and stuff after being on the losing end of back to back WS…Haha!
Well even if this new manager gets us back to .500 this season is still a bust and we would still have the same meddling incompetent front office so pardon me if I don’t think all of our problems would suddenly be over. There are several people who should lose their jobs.
Sooner – some really good points. Here’s a few more, not to pile on Olie, but to point out that on field management does make a huge difference especially in close games.
He pulled Montgomery on several occasions when he was pitching well and still under 100 pitches, and has done the same with Waino apparently for no other reason than pitch count. I think his management of Mikolas has been pretty good. In Waino’s and Monty’s cases, there were runners on base with an unfavorable pitcher/hitter matchup, but Olie chose our inconsistent bullpen over starters who were executing their pitches. Seems he reverted to analytics rather than managing.
He let the O’Neal situation blossom into a public spat when he could have downplayed it publicly while still holding O’Neal accountable in the clubhouse. That very likely affected many players mentally, and certainly impacted O’Neal’s performance.
He also let the Contreras off again on again catching confusion affect the lineup and consistency with the pitching staff. Even if Mo was pulling the strings, the manager should have stepped in with a clear explanation of what was happening or made it clear to the FO that it’s not good for the team. Doesn’t sound like any of that happened. (what would TLR have done?) Error on the manager.
Bad messaging to the team and public when he said during the string of losses in April that they would help the team in September. Most seasoned managers at that point would make it clear to the team and everyone that they are focused only on their next game, getting back to basics, simplifying their approach, etc. Maybe that’s partially why this team lacks focus in close games – they don’t think these games matter as much as Sep games. That’s the manager’s responsibility to keep the team focused.
Baseball is an unforgiving sport when you’re losing, especially for managers. But that’s part of the process and they all know it.
Yeah, that patter about helping the team in Sept. started when they were getting swept in a 3 game series in SF. They took a 2 run lead into the bottom of the 9th and lost on a walk-off tater and he says during the post-game presser that he guaranteed the loss would build character and help the team in Sept. He’s a bad combination of dumb and nuts. I thought to myself, “If that’ll help them, I’d hate to see what he thinks would hurt them”…Should have pulled the plug at that very instant.
we have no home grown international players
Lots of 16 and 17 year olds are good athletes with baseball skills that are slick for a kid. That whole thing is a ridiculous crap shoot. The resources would be better spent evaluating, acquiring and working with adult age players with some reliable history, makeup and baseball pedigree. It would also help if you don’t give away the keepers.
I’m not certain how the recruiting process works for a 16 or 17 year old, but if it’s economically attractive to get commitments at an earlier age, I’m reasonably certain that’s why they don’t mind a dice roll on young, undeveloped talent.
I’m not certain how the recruiting process works for a 16 or 17 year old,
I don’t know for sure either, and I think its kind of murky and too many questions is not appreciated. Most of the kids I think have been associated with a baseball focused ‘academy’ where they play and are provided exposure to the MLB organizations. Not for free of course. Some kind of a cut I think. There have now and then been stories of unscrupulous behavior. I don’t know how true or not true. The families of these kids are desperate for the chance, which creates vulnerability. The whole thing creeps me out. But you hit the nail on the head, it comes down to the money.
I’m watching a well played 2-1 Yankees/Dodgers game that’s being played in the 9th inning and the thought occurred to me that a lot of people, including myself, think of the Cardinals as in the same class of the two aforementioned organizations. I ask myself, why are names like Dave Roberts and Aaron Boone moving the pieces around from the dugout in this game while the Cardinals are managed by some guy that not only hasn’t been around the proverbial block, but also has clearly demonstrated that he isn’t aware of his surroundings? I went from boyhood to long in the tooth watching guys manage the St. Louis, Cardinals who had names like Schoendienst, Herzog, Torre and LaRussa. Now, I’m relegated to some guy who’s not even worth mentioning. I can’t understand why this organization refuses to hire someone to manage it’s baseball team that possesses any valid credentials. It doesn’t even qualify for what could be termed nonsense.
Yeah, I’ve been led to understand there’s the very real potential for exploitation. Especially in regards to young players in other countries. I have no idea what sort of constraints, if any, are set in place, but I’m reasonably certain that like any other rules, there are plenty of instances of those rules being either skirted or entirely disregarded.
why are names like Dave Roberts and Aaron Boone moving the pieces around from the dugout in this game while the Cardinals are managed by some guy
All of the orgs employ analytics to some extent, some more than others. I think the Cardinals are in a class by themselves where it has completely run away with them. Those kind of guys are long gone because their value is not recognized or understood, and there is no mechanism where what they bring to the table can be factored in. The computers do all that. The manager just executes the instructions. Guys with intrinsic value like Albert and Maddux have no role, so they scram.
Marmol doesn’t even have enough respect for the history and traditions of the franchise to be seen wearing the birds on the bat in the dugout. How is he supposed to generate any pride and respect amongst the players. The answer is he’s not, since those type of human factors are not understood by a computer so they don’t exist and don’t matter. You just need a hollow drone on the top step and nothing else.
Obviously, I have no way to know the thoughts of the players, but my impression is that the majority of them don’t afford him what could be termed a significant amount of respect. Futhermore, it’s my guess that a handful of them would welcome a managerial change.
Marmol may be in over his head but to say he doesn’t have respect for the organization seems like an extreme thing to say. He was a Cardinal minor league player and managed three different Cardinal affiliates before joining the major league staff so how could he not respect the organization?
As for our international drafting department I could think of 20 other more pressing problems than that.
That may or may not be true, gscottar, but I’d like to know why he seems to shy away from taking the chance that anyone should see his jersey number…I can rattle off the numbers of several past Redbird managers real quick. Not his.
Dave Roberts and Aaron Boone huh? I would wager that a majority of Yankee fans are would be fine with Boone getting the axe. Why? Because they can’t win the big one.
Roberts? He seems like a fine manager but he admitted last year that the front office was calling the shots with their post season lineups. Sound familiar?
Have you ever noticed how many managers wear a pullover or sweatshirt now? It is very common. I can’t say that I like that fashion trend but to act like Marmol is the only manager that does it is incorrect.
I am not here to defend Marmol. I am fine with them making a change to see if it gives us a jolt but I am sure as heck not going to give this front office a free pass. Bleep no on that. I am afraid the manager is not our only problem and to pretend it is is at best naive and at worst something else.
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