Wainwright or Ross in 2019

Home The Cardinal Nation Forums Open Forum Wainwright or Ross in 2019

This topic contains 101 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by Brian Walton Brian Walton 8 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 102 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #70379
    Avatar
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    If the Cards decide they want a veteran long man/spot starter for 2019 and narrow in on a choice between Wainwright and Ross at a similar price, which would you prefer? If it is Wainwright, how much of his Cardinal history affects your decision?

    Note: Neither one is not an option as an answer to this question!

    #70382
    Avatar
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Ross….”but it’s a lot closer than I thought it would be”…….for some reason, I always liked that line from the hit movie “Invincible”. Ross has more than proved his worth so far as a Cardinal. If we don’t have him in our plans for 2019, I can think of about 25 teams who would. But with all that Waino has done for this team over the years, I feel guilty not tabbing him.

    #70394
    Avatar
    NJ315
    Participant

    Ross.

    #70395
    Avatar
    NJ315
    Participant

    Delete

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Avatar NJ315.
    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Avatar NJ315.
    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Avatar NJ315.
    #70397
    Avatar
    NJ315
    Participant

    #70407
    Avatar
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    NJ? Ross? Waino? Someone else?

    The sane mind has to go with Ross. Waino is not the future. Oh what a huge part of the past he was though!

    #70450
    Avatar
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I agree with Pugs, Carioca. It’s Tyson Ross in a relative landslide if the money’s the same.

    Ross has been really good more recently than Waino (2015 v 2014), which is a small point in his favor. But the much larger point is that Tyson is sooo much younger. I think there’s a non-trivial chance that the 31-year-old Ross rebounds to a slightly lesser version of his best self, and even Tyson Ross Lite would be a solid #3/4 starter on a 90-win team.

    But with all due respect, CC, I feel like the premise doesn’t fit the StL personnel anyway. In 2019 Gant and Gomber should both be long men/spot starters in my opinion, with Ponce migrating into short relief and Hudson competing with Reyes and Weaver for the final rotation slot alongside Martinez, Wacha, Mickolas, and Flaherty. With average health, and if they figure out how Weaver is tipping his pitches, it should be an excellent rotation again next year.

    #70452
    stlcard25
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    While neither has been particularly great, I’d probably go with Ross since he’s younger. Waino would be cheaper, though.

    The perfect scenario would be Waino choosing to retire after this year. As much as I think he’s not as good as most of the 2019 rotation options, I wouldn’t like to see him pitching without the Birds on the bat on the uniform.

    #70463
    Avatar
    wagee12
    Participant

    Hey RR. Weaver. really?? Was that a joke? He needs to be a part of a trade, no a starter in St. Louis.

    #70476
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    We can’t assume that Weaver’s only problem is pitch tipping. The lack of a curve ball is a much bigger problem in my opinion.

    As for Waino or Ross, I would lean Ross. He is younger, cheaper, and it is usually a good idea to go with your head over your heart. Sentimentality can get you in trouble.

    #70477
    Avatar
    Nigel T
    Participant

    Paid - Three Months

    Weaver hit a bump. It is expected for young pitchers, and there is every expectation that he should learn and grow from this. A slightly better version of Weaver before his maddening troubles is a very valuable starter.
    I like Wainwright because he would provide ace-like production until his elbow balks again, and then one of the future starters slide right in.
    Ross very well could provide us with way more poor innings clogging the staff with an overpriced cast off.
    Waino has led many staffs, but Ross has rarely been a part of a winner.

    #70478
    bicyclemike
    bicyclemike
    Moderator

    Paid - Annual

    The decision will be made if Waino is offered say a two-year deal from another club. Perhaps the young Atlanta club will bring him back as a guy who will provide leadership, and some innings out of their bullpen for a couple of years. Tough to say though. I lean a little bit to Waino as he brings more of that leadership and intangible assets to the club. He should pitch in relief though.

    Weaver’s primary issue is location. His stuff is good, but he misses in and out of the zone too often. He probably needs to work on developing a more effective cutter, and perhaps a sinker. With his physique, he may be more suited to a bullpen role long-term.

    #70486
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    For all we know neither Waino or Ross could be on the team next year. But if we are choosing between the two the decision should be based on future projections instead of past heroics.

    As for Weaver it is difficult for a two pitch pitcher to be an effective starter. That second and third time through the order can be a killer. He might be able to become an effective reliever.

    #70491
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    The last time Wainwright provided “ace-like production” was in his age 32 season, back in 2014. It is also the last season he logged an ERA better than Ross’ career average of 3.94.

    I am not saying Ross will be another Woody Williams, but to this point, there are definitely parallels, including a major improvement once becoming a Cardinal. (The main difference is that Woody started while Ross is working out of the pen.)

    Another important factor not yet mentioned here is salary expectations for 2019. Even if Wainwright took a 50% pay cut, it would be just under $10 million. The Cards could easily buy two or three Rosses for that or more likely, use the money to improve the team elsewhere.

    As much as I respect what Wainwright has done, he would have to take a very low-base, heavily incentive-laden contract to be asked back to my team for 2019. Over the last three years, he has received almost $60 million in return for 4.74 ERA results – so he has been treated very well already for his many past successes.

    Regarding his current performance, “Been there, done that”. In the last few years, he’s had a few good starts before, leading to the same premature celebrations that the “old Waino” was back.

    For example:

    July 2016 – 3 straight wins, 1 run over 23 innings. August ERA = 6.10, Sept ERA = 5.05
    May-June 2017 – 4 straight wins, 1 run over 26 1/3 innings. Two of next three starts = 9 ER each

    #70492
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It was mentioned.

    As for Waino or Ross, I would lean Ross. He is younger, cheaper, and it is usually a good idea to go with your head over your heart. Sentimentality can get you in trouble.

    #70503
    Avatar
    CariocaCardinal
    Participant

    Paid - Monthly

    Brian, I think Ross will get North of $5 million next year even if is for long relief. Someone putting him in their rotation might pay more.

    #70507
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    I am less sure about that, CC. Prior to this season as a free agent, Ross took a minor league deal and $1.75 MM base plus incentives only if he made the majors (which he did). His San Diego results during the year were bad enough he was put on waivers and went unclaimed by a majority of the MLB teams despite the remainder of that relatively low salary due. So, you really think eight games for the Cards has increased his value that much?

    But does it really matter whether Wainwright’s salary is double or triple Ross’ next year? Does anyone disagree that Ross should come substantially cheaper? Isn’t that the relevant point?

    #70511
    Avatar
    NJ315
    Participant

    Ross will be cheaper and is younger. If/when deciding between Ross or Waino the choice is clear, Ross is your man.

    #70513
    Avatar
    858booyah
    Participant

    Free

    I could see Ross getting a Bud Norris contract with incentives. A guy like Ross who might be a swingman veteran would be of importance. You still have Wacha around as another mentor as well.

    Waino if he indeed wants to continue needs to pick his destination carefully. Definitely needs to pitch in a park that’s pitcher friendly if he’s offered a chance to start. My guess is that’s what will happen or he’ll be offered a deal where he can get the opportunity to start or come out of the pen. A place Like Florida or San Diego would match well.

    #70515
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    To clarify the post above, Norris got a $3 MM base plus incentives this season – and he was coming off 19 saves with the Angels.

    Interestingly, Norris’ 2017 deal with LAA looked identical to Ross’ deal this year with SD. $1.75 MM base plus incentives if he made the MLB roster.

    #70786
    Avatar
    RememberDiz
    Participant

    Free

    Wainwright has demonstrated that he is back, at least in two occasions.

    Ross is someone that I don’t think we want on the staff if we want to win a pennant. I don’t see him anywhere useful, a journeyman at best.

    #70794
    Avatar
    GACard
    Participant

    Free

    Another bases loaded choke. Let’s get a third baseman. Been saying that for a few years. Sorry wrong thread. Please delete

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Avatar GACard.
    #70803
    Avatar
    PugsleyAddams
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Ha! We’ve all done it, GAC! We do need that 3rd baseman though!

    #71048
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    #71057
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Totally agree!

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 102 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

First-hand news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals™ and their minor league system for 20 years