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This seems like a case of “my dead arm is not the same as your dead arm.” I’ve never read or thought too much about it before, so I’ve done that this morning. Several of the medical and baseball sources I’ve read are saying the same thing. Dead arm is suffered by athletes (e.g., pitchers, tennis players, etc.) and physical laborers (such as carpenters). They all seem to say two things: it’s caused by overuse and one of the treatments is rest. Google it and I think you’ll see what I’m talking about. I’d like to see some source that is saying what Marmol is saying, but haven’t been able to find it yet. Do they really know the problem is a “dead arm” and what is that exactly? It might mean different things to different people, so who knows what he’s really dealing with?
My son is a practicing physical therapist (and a Cards and Wainwright fan, I raised him right). I texted him this question this morning. I’m interested to see what he thinks and how his practice would treat an patient/athlete such as Wainwright.
You need three starters for the opening series. That’s Quintana and Mikolas for sure. It would be different if Montgomery or Flaherty were pitching really well this month, but it’s kind of open. Wainwright was good against the Dodgers last year, but subpar vs the Padres in 2020. Montgomery was lights out in August and Flaherty was an up-and-coming star in 2019. I’d stick with Waino.
Sept ERA:
Quintana – 0.71
Mikolas – 2.52
Flaherty – 4.29
Montgomery – 4.67
Wainwright – 6.38Having Matz and Hudson, along with whoever loses out of the 5 above, to piggyback gives me hope that it really doesn’t matter who the ‘opener’ is.
I fear that Marmol will respect Waino by starting him and then stay with him too long, also out of respect. Games can turn on a single pitch. The offense isn’t good enough to close a big gap – or maybe any gap, depending on the day.
Fortunately, they have eight more games to base their decisions upon.
Well, thank goodness Ollie has a “thought process.”
My cynical guess is the process is simply asking Adam what he wants to do. Kind of like Mo allowing Yadi to go check on his basketball team.
Waino has had a great career. Perhaps it might be time for him to ride off with Yadi and Albert when the season ends. Hanging on for one more year just doesn’t make alot of sense.
wagee12…If Wainwright returns for the ’23 season, it’ll be in pursuit of 200 W’s for his career. He’s at 195 right now. I’d say if he gets to 200, he has an outside chance to gain entry into the HOF some day.
” I fear that Marmol will respect Waino by starting him and then stay with him too long, also out of respect.”
I second that. Well said.
” I fear that Marmol will respect Waino by starting him and then stay with him too long, also out of respect.”
I second that. Well said.
Definitely possible. Adam commands a lot of respect, and rightfully so, which ironically could lead to bad decisions where the heart trumps the brain. However, I doubt we’re dealing in a Marmolian vacuum here. Oli will likely get even more help than usual come playoff time on interpreting what all the recent data means regarding how much “respect” he is allowed to give to Adam.
Bottom line, if the front office thinks this is an issue, they’d be foolish to not have a specific conversation with Oli about it, and without Adam in the room.
How long he works is anyone’s guess, but unless he simply can’t pitch, I’d have to say that Wainwright is still the odds on favorite to throw the first pitch of the ballgame in the Cardinal’s post season opener at Busch Stadium. He normally has success at home and besides that, who else would you hand the baseball to in game 1?
Agreed there could be front office help in making the starting decisions, but likely not for in-game pitching decisions.
Oliver…Yeah, probably not. A CYA would have helped his chances. Two 2nd and two 3rd place finishes in the voting don’t really do him any good, I guess. There’s only 3 SP’ers pitchers already in there with very comparable numbers and one of them, won 2 CYA’s.
It is looking like we will be led into post season by two starters brought in mid season and one, Mikolas, who is not the product of the Cardinals system, and who sports a losing record. The offense relies upon Goldy and NA holding down the middle of the order surrounded by a daily shuffle of mostly inconsistent complimentary pieces. There can be rationalizations, but that’s where we are.
Waino should not see the mound in 1st round.
should be Quintana, Miles & either Jack or Monty.
All should have a really quick hook, as the bullpen has been very, very good.Currently Waino and Montgomery are trending down, and Flaherty is trending up. Will be interesting to see how that looks at the end of the week.
Waino is a guy that could get to post season and pitch a gem. But then, do you want to take that chance?
The ’21 NLWC game featured a SP’er matchup of Adam Wainwright/Max Scherzer. Each of them allowed 1 ER in that post-season outing. Does anyone remember who worked more IP’ed in that game?
Goldy is in a slump. The same can be said by Arenado but not as bad. They both need to right the ship. Mikolas has been pitching well. The win and loss record is not fully controlled by the pitcher. His era is very good especially lately.
Well said Euro. In this day and age the front office provides a lot of “input” on personnel decisions. This isn’t the 1980’s when Whitey was both GM and manager.
I would gladly welcome Wainwright back next year. He has 3.51 ERA over 187 innings this year. Maybe we can limit his innings, start him off slower than usual (5 days of rest) You can’t judge his season by just the last month if he isn’t injured.
Our rotation for 2023 is currently Mikolas, Montgomery, Matz, Flaherty, Hudson with Liberatore, Pallante, and Thompson being the next man up. Just like this year, we can’t go into the season with just the top 5. It would be great to go into the season with 6, IE Wainwright, who I’d much prefer to the young guys as the ‘6th’ option. We know one of the 6 won’t be ready or will already be injured by April 1st.
And there are the ever present questions on the a availability of the two flame throwers, Hicks and Reyes. Neither one has been able to take the ball enough to be reliable, but there is always that “what if?” scenario that tags right behind them.
Screw the Waino pride thing and respect. You have a 3 game set at home WC. Starters get into to trouble a couple early frames and you pull them. We have the depth to do so.
Waino is a tad concerning but IMO it’s all on this last start of the regular season on how short of a leash you have. If he goes 6 innings 2 ER and around 90+ pitches you pencil him in. Which game idk.
Pads, regarding your 2023 rotation, you’re spot on. That being said, I stand behind my 5,000 other posts about needing an ace for 2023.
A FA signing would be ideal but that’s a thin market with a lot of teams bidding. A trade seems the most likely to me.Our rotation for 2023 is currently Mikolas, Montgomery, Matz, Flaherty, Hudson with Liberatore, Pallante, and Thompson being the next man up
I guess it is assumed Mo will not be signing Quintana. I’m not so sure. A reliable innings eater is exactly what we need.
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