The Outfield and Fowler

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  • #125031
    Boyer14Boyer14
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    Time to move on from Fowler whatever the cost.

    #125033
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Time to move on from Fowler whatever the cost.

    I’d imagine that will happen if they get any baseball in at all this year and he struggles for half the season.

    #125061
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    There are those who spend time around the team who say Fowler is the most self absorbed player they have ever seen.

    Fowler may not be the most self-absorbed player but he is up near the top within some stiff competition. Some of us realized that trait when the trade was made. He sold the FO a bill of goods that has turned out to be nothing more than a guy who is wasting ABs of better players because bowtie is on the hook for giving him a totally over valued contact. So which one is more self absorbed?

    Mozeliak made a trip to Fowler’s home in Las Vegas circa ’18. What the hell was that all about? Whatever it was it didn’t help our team a wooden nickel’s worth. Au contraire.

    #125062
    Avatarbccran
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    Fowler –

    September, 2019 – .183/.325/.312/.636
    Playoffs, 2019 – .061/.162/.091/.253
    Spring Training, 2020 – .097/.176/.097/.273

    #125063
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Fowler –

    September, 2019 – .183/.325/.312/.636
    Playoffs, 2019 – .061/.162/.091/.253
    Spring Training, 2020 – .097/.176/.097/.273

    That’s some extremely selective sampling right there. How about June, July, August?

    #125064
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Some here will say that they expect a big bounce back from him…. Fowler doesn’t seem to love the game enough for that to happen. Its apparent that the effort isn’t there and the motivation is very questionable.

    #125065
    Boyer14Boyer14
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    Fowler is done, it has noting to do with his desire.

    MLB players work so hard to make the big time, it’s foolish to think they suddenly don’t care anymore.

    #125066
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Maybe his bank account tends to say otherwise. He had a career year in his FA season when he was motivated.

    #125067
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Most people made their minds up about Fowler long ago and cite whatever supports their point of view.

    My take is that while Fowler has clearly been a disappointment, he was nowhere near the poorest Cardinals offensive performer over the course of the 2019 season, as indicated by the data presented already (and ignored by many).

    At the same time, some of you make it clear you have no confidence in the young outfielders (O’Neill, Thomas and Bader), either, while you run down Fowler, too. That makes me wonder exactly which three outfielders would meet your high standards to start.

    Let’s see, how about Edman in both left and right and Carlson in center. Is that it?

    Maybe some of us could be a tad more realistic.

    #125068
    Avatarbccran
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    Matheny had problems with Fowler, Pham, and Wong (when he refused to stop swinging for the fences).

    Mo simply signed Fowler without deep diving diligence.
    He wanted one of the catalysts that led to the Cubs success.
    He should have gone deeper.

    #125069
    Avatarbccran
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    How about Edman in center because of his speed, Carlson in right, and Ravelo or Miller in left.

    #125070
    Boyer14Boyer14
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    Fowler just crashed, it happens.

    #125071
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Ny said:

    He had a career year in his FA season when he was motivated.

    I suggest you actually look at Fowler’s career stats. His FA season was 2016.

    His career highs:
    Runs 2015 CHI
    Doubles 2011 COL
    HR 2017 STL
    RBI 2017 STL
    BA 2012 COL
    OBP 2016 CHI
    SLG 2017 STL
    OPS 2012 COL
    SB 2009 COL

    So in conclusion, in these nine standard stats, Fowler had his best year in ONE of them in 2016. Further he had his best year in the most of them, THREE, as a Cardinal.

    (editorial comments removed)

    P.S. If you use OPS+, which I did earlier when comparing Cardinals in 2019, Fowler’s 123 in 2016 was his best – a whopping one point better than his 2017 with STL (122). He also had 120 and 119 seasons earlier, so has never really had a career spike.

    Bottom line, Fowler’s 2016 was a career high mostly because his team won the World Series.

    #125072
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    bccran said:

    How about Edman in center because of his speed, Carlson in right, and Ravelo or Miller in left.

    If you honestly believe they are the best combination of starting outfielders the Cardinals have, we have nothing more to discuss.

    If you are jerking my chain, you have been successful! 😉

    #125073
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Most people made their minds up about Fowler long ago and cite whatever supports their point of view.

    I made my mind up when I saw the length of the contract and the ridiculous $$, period.

    The numbers he has put up plus all the disruption of ’18 has just added to the calamity. How was any man supposed to deal with that and the fact that bowtie was forcing Fowler to be included in the lineup. Was Dexter promised playing time in LV? Its a good supposition. How else could it reasonably be explained.

    #125074
    Avatarbccran
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    Edman –
    2019 as a Cardinal – .304/.350/.500/.850

    Carlson in 2019 –
    AA – .281/.264/.518/.882
    AAA – .361/.418/.681/1.099

    Ravelo at Memphis in 2019 – .299/.383/.473/.856/. In 2018 he was .308/.392/.487/.879
    Memphis posters have said he was the one player they wanted at the plate when the pressure was on.

    Miller as a major leaguer in 2019 – .260/.329/.565/.894

    We all have our opinions, Brian. And our facts.

    #125075
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Go for it, bccran. You are clearly the inventor of the Miller/Ravelo platoon. I’ll not lose sleep waiting to ever see it happen, though. Parsing out relatively small samples of data is not how teams make decisions.

    #125080
    Avatarbccran
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    Should we use the data from Bader’s full 2019 season? Seems to me that’s not a relatively small size of data.

    #125081
    Avatarbccran
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    And I didn’t suggest a platoon of Ravelo and Miller. I stated “Miller or Ravelo” in Left. A competition.

    I guess we all have our thoughts and opinions. I’m not jerking anyone’s chain. I watched all of our “OFers” at Jupiter from 3/5-3/13 and simply was the most impressed by Edman, Ravelo, Miller, and Carlson. I was least impressed by
    Fowler and Bader.

    #125082
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Mo simply signed Fowler without deep diving diligence.
    He wanted one of the catalysts that led to the Cubs success.
    He should have gone deeper.

    At the time, the Cards needed a center fielder and Fowler was the best option. It hasn’t worked out and that’s too bad but it’s absurd to think that the Cards are only playing Fowler because of the money he’s making. He’s playing because the results of his career prove he deserves a shot at it, at the very least.

    #125083
    Avatarbccran
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    Maybe if we compared these players offensively in their most recent seasons it wouldn’t be a small sampling –

    Fowler (MLB) – .238/.346/.409/.755
    Bader (MLB) – .205/.314/.366/.680
    O’Neill (MLB) – .262/.311/.411/.722
    O’Neill (AAA) – .265/.325/.517/.842
    Edman – (MLB) – .304/.350/.500/.850
    Edman (AAA) – .305/.356/.513/.869
    Ravelo (AAA) – .299/.383/.473/.856
    Thomas (AAA) – .268/.352/.460/.812
    Miller (MLB) – .260/.329/.565/.894
    Carlson (AA) – .281/.364/.518/.882

    So comparing the OPS stats for the players that spent some time at the ML level –

    Miller – .894
    Edman – .850
    O’Neill – .842
    Fowler – .755
    Bader – .680

    For the AAA comparative numbers –

    Ravelo – .856
    Edman – .850
    O’Neill – .842
    Thomas – .812

    For AA comparative numbers –

    Carlson – .882

    Make the level adjustments and it still comes out pretty much the same – that Carlson, Edman, Ravelo, and Miller are probably your top 4 offensive choices right now for OF time.

    #125084
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    I guess we all have our thoughts and opinions. I’m not jerking anyone’s chain. I watched all of our “OFers” at Jupiter from 3/5-3/13 and simply was the most impressed by Edman, Ravelo, Miller, and Carlson. I was least impressed by
    Fowler and Bader.

    How would you compare your week of viewing to how much time, tape, and scouting/work the team itself has done with all of the players you mentioned and more? Don’t you think it’s at least possible that they are putting what they believe is the best team out on the field?

    They are professionals and we sit in the seats for a reason, IMO.

    #125087
    Avatarbccran
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    25 – I agree with you 100%. Of course the professionals you are referring to also felt that Grichuk, Piscotty, Adams, and Diaz were forming the new core. Right?
    Do you really feel any differently now about Bader, O’Neill, and Thomas? If so, I’d welcome your reasoning.

    #125090
    Avatarforsch31
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    14Ny, do you have any proof to the “fact” Mo was forcing Fowler into the lineup? I have not seen anything anywhere.

    #125091
    Avatarforsch31
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    Once again, we are going to take small sample sizes to prove points but ignore other samples like spring training this year or career averages. As many have said, numbers can be twisted to prove points.

Viewing 25 posts - 51 through 75 (of 96 total)
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