The Arozarena-Jmart/Liberatore Trade

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  • #127282
    Avatarbccran
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    BW – a part of this a discussion is about the risk of not getting a proven player as a cornerstone for the outfield, like we got Goldy to anchor the infield.

    You have stated an axiom about comps. I’ll state another one –

    Never get overly excited about a prospect.

    The Cardinals realize that with the additions of guys like
    Walker, Berkman, Beltran, Heyward, Fowler, Ozuna, etc. They have provided assurance over the years that there would be at least some proven production and experience in the outfield (and the infield).

    When filling from within, they have phased it in. Right now we are facing a situation that within a year we could very well have very little experience and very little offensive production out there. If that doesn’t concern you, I don’t know why not.

    Am I rooting for Bader, O’Neill, Carlson, Thomas, and maybe even Williams to come through? Absolutely. I just think it would be smart for them to hedge their bets. Get a proven outfielder to anchor it and let the 4 kids compete for the other 2 spots.

    #127285
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    Get a proven outfielder to anchor it and let the 4 kids compete for the other 2 spots.

    Can we put a name to Mr Proven? Was there any outfielder on the market this past winter that would have fit the bill? I’m just curious who we are dealing with here.

    #127287
    Avatargscottar
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    I would imagine the Cardinals would prefer a more proven outfielder as well but this situation came down to money and was predicted months in advance. Dewitt gave the front office a budget and that budget filled up in a hurry. The team was really boxed in with money owed to Leake, Cecil, Fowler, Carp, A. Miller, and to some extent Yadi. There was only so much money to play with this past offseason and we only had room for B. Miller and Kim.

    Had we had more financial flexibility the OF would probably have another proven veteran.

    #127289
    Avatarmudville
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    Let’s root for Austin Dean, also. He was thrown on the scrap heap by the Marlins and he’s been doing everything to prove them wrong, after he had been showing his stuff for the whole time he’s been in the minors.

    #127290
    Avatarbccran
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    Good post gscott. The absolute truth. But maybe there was a very good outfielder in his arbitration years with a low budget team that would have liked 3 of our higher end prospects.

    #127292
    jj-cf-stljj-cf-stl
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    Marte was traded, I’d call him a “proven outfielder”. What his cost to stl would have been is unknown. He cost the Dbacks their #33 pick in 2019 and a short season SS.

    Who was available is not really the issue because our FO had already determined to give, O’Neill, Bader and probably Thomas their playing time, with Carlson real close. Appears the FO didn’t want to block these players, but rather play them and decide if they are keepers.

    If we are going to develop from within, eventually they need to play, regularly.

    #127294
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

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    I think both gscottar and jj-cf-stl are right. The team did not want to spend more money on free agent outfielders AND they wanted to give their young guys a shot (which may also include Edman along with the other four names jj cited). Which was the cart and which was the horse is a debate that will never have an answer.

    But didn’t we know all of this months ago? Because they only got halfway through spring training, the decisions are not yet made.

    So what is the current beef again?

    #127299
    Avatarbccran
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    Trade.

    #127328
    Avatarbccran
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    25 – You asked for the name of a “Mr. Proven”. Let’s throw out one. Mike Matheny just took over the on field reins of the Royals. He knows how the Cardinals develop players, especially pitchers. The Royals have a Cuban outfielder by the name of Jorge Soler who just turned 28 in February. In 2019 he slashed .265/.354/.569/.922. Hit 48 home runs and drove in 117. Here’s his salary history –

    2015 – Cubs – $2.67 million
    2016 – Cubs – $3.67 million
    2017 – Royals – $3.67 million
    2018 – Royals – -$4.67 million
    2019 – Royals – $4.46 million
    2020 – Royals – $7.3 million

    He has one more year in 2021 of arbitration. The Royals total 25 man payroll in 2020 is $72.15 million. No way are the going to be able to keep him.

    What would it take to get him in a trade, and have him for
    2020 and 2021? Then extend him if everything goes well.

    The timing is excellent with Carp, Waino, Cecil, Fowler, and maybe Yadie coming off the books in the next 2 years.

    What are the downsides? Temper? Injury history? Too many Ks?

    #127329
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

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    stlcard25 clearly asked for the name of a player who was on the market last winter to address the unmet need you perceive. Instead, trying to acquire another team’s best player (who was highly likely to not have been available) is not answering the question posed, while redirecting the discussion from the possible to the unlikely…

    #127335
    Avatarbccran
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    I’m sorry, BW, but I tried to answer his question in the best way I know how. I have never, ever been a proponent of signing a big ticket free agent to a long term contract without giving it a test run. I go along with Bill Dewitt’s philosophy that he wants to first see how a player is with his teammates, his manager and coaches, the FO, and the fans. Therefore if I answer stlcard25’s question about a free agent on the market I would say none. That is the way I have always felt and been consistent about it on this forum.

    Leake? Mistake, Bill would say that. Fowler. Mistake. Bill would say that. Cecil? Mistake. Bill would say that too.

    I enjoy the give and take with stlcard25, and hope it continues between the 2 of us. Although I have never been a fan of fantasy trades, I thought this might be a good one to discuss. Is it unlikely? Perhaps, but the Royals aren’t going to pay one player 40% of their total payroll. Which means he will probably be available. And Matheny may help their GM with the players from the Cardinals organization he would like to have. Maybe stlcards25 or some other poster would like to talk about this in a constructive manner. Perhaps even come up with some other names. Because all the talk about signing big name free agents is pretty much a waste of time.

    #127352
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    I get where you are coming from, but it seems to me discussing signing free agents would be more realistic than targeting players in trade that are not known to be available.

    I will get out of the way and let you and stlcard25 continue, but his point seemed to be that if you want to talk trades that could have been, focus on those players who were actually traded (or IMO, at least ones who had strong rumors attached to them). That would seem to lead to better discussion than suggesting the Cards should have acquired Mike Trout (an absurd example, but used to reinforce the point).

    #127355
    Avatarbccran
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    I have never enjoyed talking about free agents who are asking for huge contracts. Maybe some veterans on short term deals like Beltran and Berkman. And as far as trades, only players who have a short time left on their contracts or are in arbitration years. Like the one I just mentioned. Guys with low budget teams who are going to get expensive in the next year or two. Where they might want some nice prospects in return.

    #127357
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    That’s what makes it all so difficult and probably why the Cards decided to go with the young guns. My feeling is that they like the potential of the young outfielders and didn’t see a fit with one of the other guys.

    As for your trade scenario, Soler might not cost a ton but it’s tricky to trade for a guy who’s coming off a career year. I doubt that he’ll replicate those numbers again and the last two trades for guys like that (Ozuna and Goldy) haven’t turned out that well.

    #127358
    Avatarbccran
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    I would have to disagree with you about Goldy. He had a very decent season last year. Mo said that if he hadn’t solidified the infield defensively, they wouldn’t have gone nearly as far as they did. It just wasn’t quite up to Goldy standards offensively. Fine in home runs and RBI, but a little off in BA and OBP. Being traded takes an adjustment – new teammates, new manager, new coaches, new city with a different culture, etc. Let’s see how he does when things resume.

    Now, to your point about a free agent. How did you feel about Corey Dickerson as a possibility? He signed a fairly reasonable contract for two years with the Marlins. Former Gold Glover and former All Star. He might have jumped at the chance to sign with a contender like the Cards.

    #127405
    Avatarbccran
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    stlcard25 –
    Would you have considered Corey Dickerson?

    #127406
    bicyclemikebicyclemike
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    My thought on Dickerson – why bring in somewhat above average guy when you have similar potential already?

    Now Dickerson had done well when given a chance to play, and bats lefty, which the club needs. But personally I don’t like throwing another road block in front of the kids. At some point they need to be given a shot to stand or fall. Thus I am in agreement to management’s thinking on this.

    #127409
    Avatarmudville
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    I think it’s an excellent idea to try to acquire Soler from the Royals. If the asking price is unreasonable, or on the off chance, that the Royals do intend to try to resign him, then we walk away. But Soler would be a difference maker, assuming that he’s not a head case of some sort.

    #127410
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    stlcard25 –
    Would you have considered Corey Dickerson?

    Bc, I didn’t mind the idea of Dickerson as a lefty they could platoon in LF and use as a pinch hitter. He could have been a solid guy to have. Ultimately, I think Carlson’s hot finish to the year made the Cards a little more comfortable going with the kids knowing that Dylan might be ready to play early in 2020.

    #127414
    Avatarbccran
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    Sure hope Dylan does well. He’s a big key. I just have never seen the Cardinals roll the dice so much on an outfield. I guess if it doesn’t work out the way they like they can make a move or two.

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