Home › The Cardinal Nation Forums › Open Forum › StL 2019 Game 112 thread: Mon 8/5 at Dodgers
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August 6, 2019 at 11:20 am #101131
I would keep one of either Fowler or Martinez around so that it’s not an entirely green outfield.
I am tired of playing OF’s who can’t play defense. If this team isn’t going to hit then lets emphasize defense at all positions. I mentioned going after Peralta or Eaton to balance out the youngsters.
August 6, 2019 at 11:26 am #101135Last night was pathetic. While Shildt has to have some long-term vision, but there needed to be an ass chewing.
I would seriously consider releasing Fowler, and Martinez shouldn’t play again until this weekend.
A clear message has to be sent. If he downplays last night’s effort, he could lose the team.August 6, 2019 at 11:38 am #101139gscottar wrote:
<I have a hard time believing we couldn’t have found an upgrade over Wacha/Ponce without gutting the farm system.>Names please (for the pitchers) that Mo should have pursued. Until recently Ponce was a hero and Hudson seems to still have a bright light shining on him despite some poor starting performances in which the offense and defense bailed him out.
August 6, 2019 at 11:45 am #101140Names please (for the pitchers) that Mo should have pursued.
How about Tanner Roark who shut us down last Sunday? I don’t think he would have cost us Gorman or Carlson.
August 6, 2019 at 11:50 am #101142So you and others say but there was not much to choose from without giving up far too many prospects. At least that’s what we are told and I take them at their word.
You and I are different in that regard for sure. I don’t believe half of what they say. Actions speak louder than words.
August 6, 2019 at 12:17 pm #101147Do we think Tanner Roark, or anyone else, could have held the Dodgers to negative one run last night? This team wasn’t a couple of pieces away. No need to start putting Band-aids on gashes.
August 6, 2019 at 1:09 pm #101149I am tired of playing OF’s who can’t play defense. If this team isn’t going to hit then lets emphasize defense at all positions. I mentioned going after Peralta or Eaton to balance out the youngsters.
What do you think is a realistic return we could get for Fowler and Martinez? It just seems like we would be further ahead prospect wise by not trading them away to get the LH bat back that we already have. And to be frank, unless we are upgrading the rotation to get a real ace (or we are 100% sure that Cmart will be ready to go a full season in the rotation next year) then it’s not like the payroll is going to be put to good use anyway.
August 6, 2019 at 2:17 pm #101155We gave up Kelly, Weaver and Young for Goldschmidt, so the front office is willing to pay the price for the right players. But, since we didn’t make a trade at the deadline, that is the more telling proof that actions speak louder than words? I am confused.
August 6, 2019 at 2:26 pm #101156What do you think is a realistic return we could get for Fowler and Martinez?
A couple of AA prospects maybe. The return isn’t as important to me as clearing the deck for OF’s who can actually play defense. I would view it as addition by subtraction.
August 6, 2019 at 2:27 pm #101157Do we think Tanner Roark, or anyone else, could have held the Dodgers to negative one run last night?
I didn’t say Roark would shut the Dodgers down. I am saying he would better than our current number 5 options who have mostly sucked all year.
August 6, 2019 at 2:29 pm #101158We gave up Kelly, Weaver and Young for Goldschmidt, so the front office is willing to pay the price for the right players. But, since we didn’t make a trade at the deadline, that is the more telling proof that actions speak louder than words? I am confused.
What is confusing is not giving your team a boost when they are clinging to first place. I think those actions (or non actions) were heard loud and clear in the clubhouse even if we get the peachy talk to the media.
August 6, 2019 at 2:38 pm #101160I didn’t say Roark would shut the Dodgers down. I am saying he would better than our current number 5 options who have mostly sucked all year.
We’d just be giving up prospects to get marginally better for 10 games. Roark is a mediocre rental, and, even if he pitched great, would only have the lasting effect of making our draft pick worse. It would have taken far more than Tanner Roark to get this team into the playoffs.
While agree that Mo didn’t sit on his hands because he understood that this team wasn’t savable, at least this time his incompetence saved us from wasting resources.
August 6, 2019 at 2:55 pm #101165at least this time his incompetence saved us from wasting resources.
This makes it sort of okay for me. If somebody I had faith in was doing the bidding, I’d have been more disappointed. The fact that we made off-season deals has nothing to do with ineffectiveness at the deadline, especially after challenging the team to their part first on the field leading up to the deadline. People carrying water for this front office must have backs that hurt like hell.
August 6, 2019 at 3:05 pm #101167It would have taken far more than Tanner Roark to get this team into the playoffs.
We were literally in first place a few days ago. The Cubs are no juggernaut away from home. They must be looking at us and saying “wow thanks.” This division was there for the taking and we decided to do nothing. It didn’t require a Greinke, Bauer, or Stroman to do it. Even incremental changes could have made the difference. There were numerous relievers we could have acquired cheaply that may have made a difference. I think a clubhouse needs a mental boost now and then and we gave them two injured relievers from the Dodgers and DFA’d reliever from the Angels who we have now designated.
August 6, 2019 at 3:13 pm #101170A couple of AA prospects maybe. The return isn’t as important to me as clearing the deck for OF’s who can actually play defense. I would view it as addition by subtraction.
I guess my point is that we probably end up losing useful prospects to trade for a Peralta or Eaton while not getting much back for Jmart and Fowler. And while I would prefer the better defense, having at least some offense on your bench is wise, as we have seen over the years.
August 6, 2019 at 3:15 pm #101171The team was in 1st place, but it isn’t a playoff team.
How would you feel about our rotation with Roark instead of Wacha? Better, of course. But would you feel good about it? I certainly wouldn’t.
Could we have acquired a couple of middle relievers to take the current place of Junior Fernandez and Ryan Helsey? Sure, but what’s our record on trade deadline relievers? I’d rather see the kids throwing.
What bats would have made this team a contender? Our lineup is mostly hot garbage. Sure, we get hot and throw up double digits from time to time, but then we get shut out by nobodies just as often.
And you know Mo would pick up some hot turds and then lock them up into ludicrous contracts. Better off just accepting reality and looking to the future.
August 6, 2019 at 3:24 pm #101172By contender if you mean someone who could threaten the Dodgers and go to the World Series then no it was never going to happen. But if you mean someone who could have won the NLC then yes it could have happened with incremental improvements. The division was there for the taking. I use past tense because I think we missed our chance.
To me winning the division would have been a big step for this group. I am not in World Series or bust mode just yet.
August 6, 2019 at 3:32 pm #101179I guess my point is that we probably end up losing useful prospects to trade for a Peralta or Eaton while not getting much back for Jmart and Fowler. And while I would prefer the better defense, having at least some offense on your bench is wise, as we have seen over the years.
I see what you are saying but Peralta only has one year left on his deal while Eaton has two option years left. I wouldn’t imagine the asking price for them would be astronomical. Nothing like a Goldy trade for one year of control.
Even if the prospects we gave up were slightly better than the prospects we got back for Fowler and JMart our OF defense would be immensely better and I wouldn’t foresee any offense regression either. Peralta and Eaton are pretty good hitters and I like the Memphis OF’s a lot.
August 6, 2019 at 3:58 pm #101186Incremental improvements were not going to push this team to a division championship. This team isn’t good at anything, and “incremental” improvements aren’t going to change that. Just look at the specifics I posted.
August 6, 2019 at 4:38 pm #101187Incremental improvements were not going to push this team to a division championship. This team isn’t good at anything, and “incremental” improvements aren’t going to change that. Just look at the specifics I posted.
This was Friday morning.
NL Central Division
Tm W L GB
STL 58 50 —
CHC 57 51 1.0
MIL 57 53 2.0
CIN 50 57 7.5
PIT 47 61 11.0August 6, 2019 at 4:42 pm #101189“Incremental improvements were not going to push this team to a division championship. This team isn’t good at anything, and “incremental” improvements aren’t going to change that. Just look at the specifics I posted.”
The Cards are current MLB rankings are 25th in Batting Average, 23rd in runs scored, 9th in ERA, 11th in Quality Starts, #1 in Fielding Percentage (they have the fewest errors and the most double plays turned).
It appears to be the offense that’s killing this team although I think the limited range of some of the fielders, while not showing up in the stats, has allowed some runs to score that might otherwise not have.
August 6, 2019 at 4:57 pm #101190We have excellent IF defense when Carp is not playing.
We have terrible OF defense when Bader is not playing.
Our rotation is good at home but terrible on the road.
The majority of our bullpen is very good.
Our baserunning is very good.
Our offense is mostly sputtering with the occasional outburst.
That about sums it up.
August 6, 2019 at 5:06 pm #101191I agree. Incremental changes were not going to make the difference for this team. So why waste top prospects for a rental or a marginal upgrade? The problem is offense. If Carpenter were real like he led many to believe he was, especially MO, things would be a lot different. We would be 3, 5, or maybe even 10 games better. The Cubs have won four in a row now. But their pitching is still suspect. The Division winner for the NL Central is still up for grabs.
August 6, 2019 at 5:54 pm #101193I would rather roll the dice with the personnel the team already has rather than give up some trade chips for a small incremental upgrade that will be gone in a year or 2. IF the offense doesn’t get going, the team wouldn’t be very long for the playoffs, anyway. The starting rotation has shown that it is weaker than the other playoff teams.
We need to use the next 2 years to carefully put together a quality playoff team and let the farm system regenerate. We might be able to speed up the process if the team is willing to spend extra money to make Fowler and Cecil go away and sign an ace like Cole. I also think it would take signing Ozuna to a reasonaable extension. (I know the chances are slim)
August 6, 2019 at 6:37 pm #101197I think to a man, we all know that even if our boys caught lightening in a bottle, they still wouldn’t have enough umph to turn that energy into an NL championship, let alone beating the likes of Houston in a 7 game series for all of the marbles. Realistically, it would take more like catching a category 4 hurricane in a bottle for our boys to win it all. But that doesn’t mean that this team is a total train wreck. Here’s who I would move forward with:
Flaherty
Hudson
Ponce
Gant
Brebbia
Edman
O’Neill
Wong
Bader
Fagalde
Goldy(2 more years) -
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